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Science’s Biggest Fail

blog.dilbert.com

91–100 of 260 posts

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#91
post #11

"I think science has earned its lack of credibility with the public. If you kick me in the balls for 20-years, how do you expect me to close my eyes and trust you?" I'm really happy to see that someone else sees this. I've been harping on this for a long time -- that the reason people believe things like anti-vaxx propaganda is not because they are idiots but because scientific authorities, the media, and the medical…

The problem here is not with science itself, but the expectation of what science is, and what it tells us, and how. People are not educated on science, period.

The popular perception is that science tells us facts about the world. This is false.

What science is, at its core, is a complete and utter acceptance of an extremely high level of doubt and uncertainty. It is living with the unknown, and working with it anyway to try to get closer to the truth.

Framed this way, science always "changing its mind" about what's right should be revered and celebrated by everyone in the world! We're looking at the advancement of civilization with our own two eyes! Not always grand and not always perfect, but that's how science works, in its own extremely productive way.

But we don't teach this. We do not teach, deeply, this version of science. No people except a chosen few will reach this level of understanding. The 99% of society which are not scientists will look at it as untrustworthy, because it always looks like it's wrong, all the time.

That is what needs to be changed. Not science itself, not what we recommend based on science—which is just the best thing that we know at the time—but the public perception of science itself. Science education must be deep, ingrained, and profound; not simply functional.

It would solve a great many problems of society if the average person were able to look at a situation with a respect for both what we know and what we do not, and understand the procedure for moving closer to truth, and respect it. It is unlikely to ever happen, but that is the systemic problem, and that is where we should direct our attention.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#92
post #11

"I think science has earned its lack of credibility with the public. If you kick me in the balls for 20-years, how do you expect me to close my eyes and trust you?" I'm really happy to see that someone else sees this. I've been harping on this for a long time -- that the reason people believe things like anti-vaxx propaganda is not because they are idiots but because scientific authorities, the media, and the medical…

I too am glad this is being realised by some people As an example with vaccines. Mercury containing substances have been phased out (thiomersal). Doctors and news outlets keep pumping information about the bad side of Mercury, etc, etc (which are true for the most part, but maybe exaggerated) But thiomersal is still used in a lot of vaccines. So people get all the negative messages about Mercury but they're supposed…

Please read this: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability...

Ethylmercury and methylmercury are not the same thing.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, for a while now, the general "scientific consensus" has been "fat is bad for you", while recently it seems to be changing to "wait, fat isn't as terrible for you as we though, and could actually be quite healthy". I'm pretty sure the "fat is bad for you" stuff wasn't just science headlines in a newspaper for the past however many years. This is the main thing that he is talking about, where something makes i…

> And yet, for a while now, the general "scientific consensus" has been "fat is bad for you", No, it hasn't. The general scientific consensus may have been that most Americans are consuming fat in general, and certain varieties of fat in particular, at levels which are unhealthy , and therefore that most Americans would be better off reducing fat intake in general, and certain common varieties of fat intake in partic…

The scientific consensus was worse than "fat is bad for you", it was saturated fat is bad, so switch from butter to trans fat loaded margarine. It lead to things like McDonalds using hydrogenated vegetable oil instead of saturated fat laden beef tallow in their fryers. The scientific consensus was specifically wrong on the types of fat that were bad.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#94
For me, science is synonymous with "predictability". By studying systems, you can create models and theories that allow you to create a prediction about the future which can then be verified. The key to science is the verification step (which is why supernatural concepts are not science; they've never been confirmed or denied).

Based upon my definition, you may be wondering about something like the theory of evolution, since evolution concerns the past (and progresses too slowly to observe in the present). But the science in that field is still a future prediction -- the nature of the prediction is that it just so happens to be about the past. In other words, as new evidence emerges that explains what happened in the past, we can compare this evidence to our prediction for what kind of evidence we would find.

So, if science is prediction, then good science is "better" prediction. Then what's the best science? Physics. Physics can make theoretical predictions that match reality up to twelve decimal places. That's insane. The next best science is chemistry, followed by biology, followed by nutrition and health (as the article discusses), followed by psychology.

Does this mean that psychologists are not as intelligent as physicists? No, it just means understanding quantum mechanics is far easier than understanding how people work -- a view which I would hazard to guess most physicists would confirm. Despite the fact that QM requires advanced math that few can understand, the totality of information necessary to make predictions at a subatomic level is very small in comparison to the amount of information necessary to model a human (biologically or mentally). A few postulates, a few mathematical definitions, some numerical methods, and BOOM -- twelve decimal places of accuracy for the gyromagnetic ratio of an isolated electron. One textbook would be completely sufficient to describe this prediction and the math behind it (although it may be kind of hard to read). On the other hand, there's no way a highly predictive model of a human could fit in one book.

Unlike the elegant laws of physics, a human body is the result of millions of years of all kinds of adaptive chaos and evolution. There's no pretty equation that describes it.

My point with all this is that the public hears "science" and they lump all science together. Instead, they should be educated on which fields of science are the most predictive, and which are still in major development. In this sense, they would have a better idea of what to trust when making decisions for themselves.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#96
My philosophy is this: Correlational nutritional studies should be trusted because they are the only and therefore best source of verifiable information on maintaining healthiness. They are, however, very noisy and each study in isolation should therefore influence my choices very little. Meta-analyses should be given more weight because they tend to smooth the noisiness.

Scott Adams bemoans the fact that the wildly varying conclusions of diet science cause people's pattern recognition to conclude that this is not trustworthy information.

However, the problem is not pattern recognition. The problem is the weight that people give to signals. When each signal is given a weight of 1 or 0, the pattern recognition will never converge on the underlying trend. The media and the public must understand that some studies should be given more weight than others.

Thus, scientists have a duty to communicate which studies should be most influential. They CANT trust the media to this.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#97
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The view on Fat moved a lot less than you might think. People used to eat a lot of fat which we still think is a bad idea. More recently we found that eating too little fat was also a bad idea. As to dietary guidelines, if you pick a target for a 2,000 calorie diet and someone on a 5,000 calorie a day diet tries to hit that same target there is a clear miscommunication going on. And yes, you can eat a relatively heal…

Your post is full of the science that people no longer trust. There is plenty of evidence that fat doesn't cause weight gain or heart attacks, and that exercise doesn't lead to weight loss because it makes you hungry. I don't know the correct answer, but I know there is a lot of uncertainty now, and there seemed to be no uncertainty in the food pyramid days.

Right, and perhaps one of the biggest things to understand is that, while thermodynamics does apply to human exercise and consumption and is really easy to understand and reason about, the conclusions you get from that tend to be overly simplistic. The problem is a fallacy along the lines of "all humans are perfectly uniform, rational decision-makers." Instead different foods release different chemicals in your brain over different timelines, causing your cravings for food to be different.

Just to take the simplest case, there is something like a 20 minute delay between food hitting your stomach and any sort of satiety signal hitting your brain. So if you have an abundance of easy-to-eat food, then you may end up consuming more calories than someone who doesn't. (You could call this the "second bowl of cereal effect": when you've eaten a bowl of cereal and still feel hungry afterwards, it's because you ate too fast because you didn't want the cereal to get soggy.) Easy weight loss plan: cook your own meals, tasting along the way; by the time you're sitting down with the food you won't be quite so hungry.

And none of that picture has to do with calorie-counting. Calorie-counting is important if you can stick to it, but most people keeping informal calorie-counts will be victim to their cravings, and those cravings are dictated by parameters of the food other than the food's caloric content.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#98
I think Science to non-scientists becomes a matter of Religion, and for us who actually do it, it becomes a matter of Philosophy/Spirituality - if you forgive the medieval imagery of that sentence.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#99

Despite the criticisms, the outcomes have been amazing. People are living longer and healthier lives than they did 20 years ago. Is Adams also forgoing vaccinations? My impression is (but someone with actual knowledge please contribute here) that modern medicine and science have achieved what no other institutions or ideas in human history have achieved, significantly extending human life and curing diseases that cur…

If you read his latest book, he describes what I think is a very healthy view of science and the notion of expertise in general. For certain classes of problems, an expert will offer the right solution 98% of the time. But for edge cases it's more like 50%.

I think there is a lot of conflicting science about nutrition (exacerbated by advertising), and people assume it falls in the 98% certain category when oftentimes it falls in the 50% category.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#100
I have a problem with science been "done"

Science is never done, or at least it shouldn't be. We create models and update them or change them as we get more evidence and the technological advancements allow us to perform better tests.

Gravity was not done with Newton. sure, it's a great model to explain how objects are attracted to each other, but Einstein came alone and proved that that the model was not correct and it made incorrect assumptions (constant time for example).

I think that is the great misunderstanding. We expect science to give us final answers. We expect it to study something and then be "done". But that is not the case.

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