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Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

dev.windows.com

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Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#61

Post by throwawayaway »

bohol wrote: post #58
microtonal wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. I even mentioned libc. There is more to an operating system than a kernel. In fact, this was an important part of my early computer education: when I was 12 (1994) I bought a copy of Slackware Linux because it had a free compiler (even Turb…

I think you overestimate the need for access to the OS for learning things. The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I do think the trend of iOS, Android and similar Windows environments is troubling. But if they ship Windows 10 on the RPi with something like QBasic and Visual Studio it's…

> The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does.

I think you mean commodore, or atari. Windows gaming came a long long time afterwards. It is more advanced in some ways but it does not beget OS programmers, like an open source OS does. If OS programmers die out, we're in very deep trouble.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#62

Post by watty »

anilgulecha wrote: post #50
quonn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, it's just another _option_. How can this possibly be a bad thing? You can of course still run Linux.

I think this was answered. It's bad because teachers would push for a platform they presumably know more about -- Windows.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Kids will be more productive on Windows and more likely be able to take those skills with them. How many kids need to know linux in the future? Here's what the Linux trend looks like: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=linux

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#63

Post by throwawayaway »

watty wrote: post #60
nkuttler wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers. Maybe, but Linux just seems more convenient. I mean, can you install gcc, golang, nodejs, python, ruby, ghc, lua (...) on windows with a single command? And all the other tools you might want to use, like editors, databases? And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't h…

I completely disagree. I used Ubuntu for a year and I spent more time fixing things or trying to do things in the OS than I have in all other operating systems combined. My nephew tried to install Ubuntu on his new build and hit brick wall after brick wall trying to install the OS and Minecraft. It simply hasn't gotten easy enough and I'm afraid it's too late now. I don't see a comeback for linux. http://www.google.c…

I do:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=android

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#64

Post by reitanqild »

hfaran wrote: post #6

Out of all of the exciting news coming from Redmond this past year, this has somehow taken the cake for me. In 2013, even suggesting Windows on Raspberry Pi could be a possibility would've gotten you laughed out of the room, and for it now to be actually happening made me take more than a few double-takes.

Somewhat unrelated: I ended up googling "take the cake", - I never heard that in English before but it seems it has a long history: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/take-the-cake.html

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#66

Post by ekr »

microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

Now, while legally, you are perfectly right, Windows is as close as ever, it's not actually that hard to look under the hood.

I work as a Windows device driver developer, and sometimes I need to reverse engineer some of the internals, and the source code from WRK is easily available on the internet : (http://gate.upm.ro/os/LABs/Windows_OS_Internals_Curriculum_R...). These are sources from 2005-2006 timeframe, but they are tremendously helpful when debugging. If you compare the disassembled version of an exported function from the Win 8.1 ntoskrnl, in most cases it's almost identical to the sources in those links. Of course, there are a few parts of the system which suffered changes, but nonetheless, it can still be very useful.

I would also recommend it for studying operating systems, but obviously, along side something else. Let's say after starting with XV6, or Pintos, Minix, then moving on to NetBSD, Linux, only after that having a look under the hood of Windows, to see a slightly different approach.

There is also the 'Windows Internals' book, but I never found it too useful. Describing concepts without any source code, and without a view to the implementation is not very helpful for me.

But I completely agree with you, personally, I would never use Windows if I wanted to play with it, I only use linux and bsd at home.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#67

Post by throwawayaway »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #55
marcosdumay wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Why not? Do you hod the opinion that kernel code is something impossible to mess with? If so, why?

When introducing kids to programming in a classroom environment, hacking the Linux kernel is a completely OTT scenario. And Linux will still be available and probably the most popular OS to be installed on RPis, for those kids who are the next Linus Torvalds.

naturally everyone wants to avoid a situation where people are afraid to try out different operating systems. instilling open mindedness and eagerness to learn new things, to kids, the idea that the OS isn't important it's what you can make it do... will stand them in better stead than leaving them with the idea that Windows or Apple or whatever, is the only way it's done.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#68

Post by nkuttler »

watty wrote: post #60
nkuttler wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers. Maybe, but Linux just seems more convenient. I mean, can you install gcc, golang, nodejs, python, ruby, ghc, lua (...) on windows with a single command? And all the other tools you might want to use, like editors, databases? And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't h…

I completely disagree. I used Ubuntu for a year and I spent more time fixing things or trying to do things in the OS than I have in all other operating systems combined. My nephew tried to install Ubuntu on his new build and hit brick wall after brick wall trying to install the OS and Minecraft. It simply hasn't gotten easy enough and I'm afraid it's too late now. I don't see a comeback for linux. http://www.google.c…

It's unfortunate that you apparently had bad experiences with Ubuntu, but this thread is about development tools, not installing third party games from external sources. Yes, if you want to game, windows seems like a more convenient choice, nobody disputes that.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#69

Post by lisnake »

mantenpanther wrote: post #32

I can't see this working, hence windows is not exactly a lean OS. Coinincidently I'm stuck in an update/reboot cycle at the moment after a fresh install. Also i need to extend my partion of 60GB after just installing the OS (8.1) to get Visual Studio installed (which will also take at least 10GB). I like the new direction of MS, but i wonder if it's possible to succeed with so much old baggage to carry...

Their current running WindowsOnDevices program showcases Microsoft's developer preview of a new, tiny version of Windows that runs on small CPU-based devices like the Intel Galileo dev board. I'm sure they are aiming for something similar for RPi2 (it's obviosly impractical to run full scale Windows 10 on such underpowered devices)

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#70

Post by Zardoz84 »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #38
microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

"Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves" "Windows is closed as ever" Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for…

I would prefer giving to a children an ZX Spectrum and explain how use it to make programs on BASIC, that putting in front of a Windows. At least, they would understand what is doing the computer, instead of seeing the computer doing "magic"
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