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Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#231

Post by juliangregorian »

hueving wrote: post #227
juliangregorian wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My b.s. meter is tingling at a lot of what you said (enough that on reddit I'd accuse you of being a shill), but you're being blatantly disingenuous about healthcare. It's true that emergency rooms won't turn anyone away (and maybe you bailed on the resultant bill as a "poor" college student), but Medicaid does nothing for most and even for those who qualify it gives nothing in the way of preventative care.

I don't think you know what the word "shill" means. You can't just use it as a term for people that have a different political view than you.

I don't think you know what the word "political" means. You can't just use it as a term for people who uncritically spew whatever bullshit they were fed out their mouth hole.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#232

Post by vegedor »

bjt wrote: post #220
ricardobeat wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These exact same words could come out of a Brazilian. Word by word. I don't know about Croatia, but in that case they are only half-truths. The idea that there are 'people who pay for everything' is usually misguided. There are the exploited, and the less exploited. Both pay in one way or another, and only a very small elite group is actually well off. You say "the situation is complicated" and "this is not fair", bu…

The obvious possible failure is that these people may find it hard to get credit in the future, as described in the last paragraph: > Some economists, among them Baker, are skeptical whether the scheme will succeed: "I am not sure that this is the best way to help low-income people. If lenders think this can happen again they will charge very high interest rates to low-income borrowers," Baker said. If you were a ban…

How much do you think a bank would have lent to someone with anyway a fair chance of not paying it back?

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#233

Post by toomuchtodo »

gizmo686 wrote: post #115
anon4 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be fair, borrowing with interest works really well only in the presence of endless growth.

Not necessarily. Borrowing with interest also works in the presence of endless inflation; it does not necessarily need real growth.

But does it work with near-zero inflation or deflation?

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#234

Post by jdmichal »

raverbashing wrote: post #16
rfrey wrote: post #2

The article says the government "convinced" banks and other companies to cancel the debts, but the lenders will not be compensated. It's left as an exercise to imagine how the lenders were convinced. I can see the benefits of getting a large number of people out of what must be a terrible situation - the numbers suggest most of the people affected probably didn't have enough income to even service their debt. But I w…

" allowing the middle class to own property, start businesses, etc," Well, there's this crazy concept called "saving money" where you don't borrow from a bank but rather put some money aside every month to be able to afford something expensive I wonder what would happen to property prices if lending was severely restricted, maybe then the value would actually be affordable and not a lifelong debt that becomes unservi…

> Well, there's this crazy concept called "saving money" where you don't borrow from a bank but rather put some money aside every month to be able to afford something expensive

That's great, except that everyone is born short housing. You're not trying to afford something expensive, you are trying to cover your short position. And you're either going to do it by buying or renting. And since renting is just throwing the money at someone else, it can make a lot of sense to get into a mortgage instead. (This is why rent vs buy calculators exist.)

> I wonder what would happen to property prices if lending was severely restricted, maybe then the value would actually be affordable and not a lifelong debt that becomes unserviceable in the first hiccup

Agree on this point. It's a lot like universities and student loans. They have the numbers; they know the average student can afford $x / semester. They also know the average student can take out $y / semester in loans. So what are they going to charge? $(x + y)! Increasing the accessibility of student loans just gives the universities a reason to increase the prices. They don't care how much debt students walk out with; they already got theirs.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#235

Post by toomuchtodo »

WildUtah wrote: post #167
papaf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say goodbye to educational loans, healthcare loans, car loans You make a good point and I do not want to undermine it. However, it is worth pointing out that people don't have to take out educational and healthcare loans in most of the civilised world (Croatia included).

And very, very few people in the civilized world outside the US and Canada need cars or car loans because most first world countries have efficient transit systems that work well and go everywhere.

Not sure why you're downvoted. Its true. And as ride shares like Uber take off, car ownership will continue to decline. Self-driving cars? Even more so.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#236

Post by nathan_f77 »

This is a beautiful idea. Straight from the Bible, too [1].

But I wonder how many citizens are right on the edge of these limits? That would really suck if you had a monthly income only slightly higher than 1,250 kuna. Also, if you have 40,000 kuna in debt, is the first 35,000 wiped out? Or none at all, because you're over the limit?

> They cannot have any other property or savings.

What if you have 2,000 kuna in savings, but you're still 37,000 kuna in debt?

I think a function might be fairer than hard thresholds. Maybe take monthly income as a parameter, and then wipe out lots of debt for the extremely poor, a bit less for people who are closer to the poverty threshold, and none for anyone who has a reasonable monthly income. Round the output to the nearest 1,000 kuna. Sure, it's more complex, but we have computers now.

Also, "The government will not pay the debts; the creditors will simply absorb them." That really sucks for the creditors, even though those debts probably had a low chance of being repaid. But it just feels wrong to force a company to forgive debts. Surely the right way is to use taxpayer money, or take a hit on inflation.

I really want to read the actual bill. Does anyone have an English translation?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28biblical%29

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#237

Post by mikerichards »

juliangregorian wrote: post #207
zo1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a restaurant isn't the only business venture an individual can get into. Just the other day I saw meme-photo (can't vouch for the validity/truthfulness) about a woman that made money at the beach by attaching balloons filled with margharita mix over her breasts. And charging party-goers (probably mostly male) for the chance to drink out of them. Ridiculous and asinine example, but I bet she started off with no…

Do you libertarians even listen to yourselves? The amount of disease that would spread... "hustling sketchy shit" is not a sustainable model of entrepreneurship.

Do you communists even listen to yourselves? He never said he was a libertarian. And where the hell do you get this "hustling sketchy shit" from? Do us a favor and reply to the comment, not whatever your mind twisted it into.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#238

Post by nandemo »

scotty79 wrote: post #68

I have trouble understanding this. > the program is expected to cost up to 210 million Croatian kuna ($31 million), > "I am not sure that this is the best way to help low-income people. If lenders think this can happen again they will charge very high interest rates to low-income borrowers," Baker said. Will the money be paid for debtors or not at all? (in case of those lenders that did not agree to forget the debt)

No.

> The government will not refund the companies for their losses.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#239

Post by nandemo »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #65

"If lenders think this can happen again they will charge very high interest rates to low-income borrowers" If lenders got their money back from government, they will be much more eager to lend.

Lenders won't get their money back.

> The government will not refund the companies for their losses.

Re: Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens

#240

Post by refurb »

juliangregorian wrote: post #201
adventured wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? "Horrors like that rich people only live in compounds surrounded by walls and armed guards, and the poor are dying because of no health care and no food, and the middle class does not exist." The poor have essentially universal free healthcare in the US and have for a long time. I should know, I've used it before, and it's very easy to use. The poor also have the benefit of the one of the…

My b.s. meter is tingling at a lot of what you said (enough that on reddit I'd accuse you of being a shill), but you're being blatantly disingenuous about healthcare. It's true that emergency rooms won't turn anyone away (and maybe you bailed on the resultant bill as a "poor" college student), but Medicaid does nothing for most and even for those who qualify it gives nothing in the way of preventative care.

Medicaid does nothing for most and even for those who qualify it gives nothing in the way of preventative care

What? That's patently false. Medicaid provides access to a wide range of providers and requires almost no financial contribution (you get a prescription filled and it's $3-5; if you can't pay it's free).

As for preventative care, it's actually a focus of Medicaid! There are numerous programs offered that provide preventative care for pregnant women and children. [1]

[1]http://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid-chip-program-information/by...

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