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Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

wisdomination.com

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Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#71

Post by dwc »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #51

This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are screwdrivers." There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested in such a topic, please please please watch it: http://vimeo.com/89936101 If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is motivation for the open…

So this comes up fairly often in language learning forums. Language acquisition is an especially good example since it can take quite a long time to get to a decent point of proficiency, and often times external rewards are minimal. So finding ways to carry on through the long, rough periods is essential.

Motivation is essential. Why else would anyone bother, except for either a driving need or a deep and abiding interest? It's what keep you going when you start to question if you really want to keep at it. But motivation on a daily basis comes and goes. Everyone who goes to the gym or runs know that.

Discipline is about pushing through when motivation flags. I disagree that discipline is only useful for "closed mode". Discipline can also help you with open mode by making you daydream and play with ideas rather than packing it in for the day. Many extremely creative people have a very set routine. A writer might have fixed hours for when they write, every single day, for instance.

In the end it's about using both motivation and discipline together.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#72

Post by Mobiu5 »

The "problem" is framed to support the author's sentiments about discipline. "Motivation vs discipline" is not a useful description of the problem at all ("x vs y" arguments seldom are). In my experience, people who frame the problem in this way are accustomed to doing what other people want them to do. They get depressed and unmotivated and wonder why they can't "make themselves" do things. So they decide to misuse the idea of discipline to complete their transformation into an automaton! Try this instead: Do whatever YOU want to do. Find what motivates you and pursue it. It really is that simple.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#73

Post by fndrplayer13 »

I really enjoyed this read, and I think the author has a very valid point. I spent the first portion of my college time for example very much in the "I'll wait to feel motivated" camp and had not so great results. I eventually transitioned into the "I need to do stuff right away to be successful" state of mind and have been there ever since. Honestly I think I'd pin most of the successes I've had since then on that world view. These days I actually love being an engineer and look forward to taking care of many of my daily tasks -- be it work and chores.

Speaking of which, I should probably clean the house. lol.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#74

Post by calinet6 »

As many have said, it is more complex.

But there are two great insights here:

1. Productivity is a system, not a sequence. Many things are interrelated and motivation is often generated by simple completion of tasks.

2. Motivation without other parts of that system may be insufficient to be productive.

Personally, I've found lack of productivity or motivation to come from unclear or disorganized states, and systems like GTD go a long way to clear that up. When you frame this inflammatory article in terms of discipline just being systems like GTD or just lists that work, it makes some sense.

But mostly, it says a lot of words that seem to be angry at abstract concepts.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#76

Post by amativos »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #51

This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are screwdrivers." There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested in such a topic, please please please watch it: http://vimeo.com/89936101 If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is motivation for the open…

Why do you assume that it's about discipline being for pushing through mindless tasks? What if my discipline is to do 3 hours of creative thinking each morning?

The point here is that you pick the things that are important to you (not mindless tasks) and start doing them every day no matter what and keep showing up even if you don't feel like it or know that the result won't be that great. Because the main goal is to build the discipline and then great things come out of it.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#77

Post by icebraining »

netcan wrote: post #70
TeMPOraL wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so what can one do? I have a genetic discipline disorder, as 23andMe could confirm you, if I could be bothered to do the screening. I possess exactly ZERO self-discipline, and in retrospect, I guess I never had any. I own my career to not having enough discipline to do my math homework at 13 - that's when I picked up programming. The lack of self-discipline is becoming an obstacle in professional lie though. How…

Try to decrease your reliance on self discipline. IE, get external forces working in your favour. You could use a coach or psychologist. Commit to tasks. Make sure they check up on you. Work closely with others. Pair programming or an environment where someone is waiting for you to finish something so they can start something else. Seek environments where you can't hide procrastination. discipline thrives in public.…

That's what works for me. When the task is boring, the guilt of letting other people hanging pushes me to finish it. It doesn't quite work for personal improvement, though, at least for me.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#78

Post by icebraining »

jakobegger wrote: post #61
TeMPOraL wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so what can one do? I have a genetic discipline disorder, as 23andMe could confirm you, if I could be bothered to do the screening. I possess exactly ZERO self-discipline, and in retrospect, I guess I never had any. I own my career to not having enough discipline to do my math homework at 13 - that's when I picked up programming. The lack of self-discipline is becoming an obstacle in professional lie though. How…

I'd suggest to stop thinking of yourself as someone without self-discipline. It's very hard to behave in a way if you believe it's against your nature. For example, I've always considered myself to be a smoker. I tried quitting dozens of times, but I always gave in because I knew I was a smoker deep inside. But at some point, I realized that there's nothing about me that makes me a smoker. And then it was easy to qui…

I don't have the motivation to stop thinking of myself as someone without self-discipline :)

(I'm only half-kidding)

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#79

Post by HCIdivision17 »

nostrademons wrote: post #7
jacquesm wrote: post #2

This is probably the best post to hit HN all month. It's a thing that I notice over and over again, the ability to execute and persevere is strongly correlated with individuals that show (self)discipline. The ability to get out of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard (even when faced with a hundred or more distractions, or on something that you may not even like) and the ability to keep a long term goa…

I dunno - I think that it makes some good overall points, but paints too black & white a picture that, if you follow it literally, will eventually lead to a breakdown where you can't accomplish anything. I think a better perspective is to think of yourself as having a "discipline budget". (This is actually born out by a lot of fMRI studies, which show that when you will yourself to do something unpleasant or difficul…

Do you have any references to the fMRI studies? I've never gone to the source for that sort of thing, and would appreciate a lead in getting started (not really sure where to even start looking).

The idea that we can biochemically run out of what powers willpower is a neat one. I feel like that implies there's something we can do to just replenish it, but making assumptions like that about complex things like brain chemistry is a great way to look smart while being not-smart.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#80

Post by jqm »

ebiester wrote: post #36

Did you ever notice that nobody ever talks about how to cultivate disciplne? If it wee as easy as "just go do it" than everyone would. The latest analogy of discipline is of a muscle. Do more and it gets bigger, right? Not exactly. While true in some aspect, it leads to bad choices on later decisions you make, at least in creative work. Three ways to improve discipline: 1. Develop a mindful meditation practice. It wi…

Traditionally, discipline was often "improved" by a third party.

Sometimes I'm really grateful for my Dad who insisted chores were done and done properly, I was out of bed on time, and that homework was done to spec. I resented it at the time, and I guess I still do in a way, but I've never had a problem getting work done, and probably have him to thank for that.

Now, if he had just taught me to be a better negotiator and womanizer....

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