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A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

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Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#31

Post by arrrg »

Zikes wrote: post #3
germinalphrase wrote: post #2

Another attractive element of these games is the moral questions that sometimes arise. I know this is particularly true in "This War of Mine" (e.g. - choosing to take in a starving child that comes knocking on your door, but who also becomes a resource burden on your small tribe). Questioning and reflecting on decision making, moral choice, and consequences of (in)action are a central focus of literature study, so I…

"Moral" choices seem to be a trend lately, especially with BioWare RPGs and their ilk (Dragon Age, Mass Effect). Unfortunately, most of the consequences are fairly minor, mostly only revolving around the opinions of your in-game acquaintances. The events unfold a little differently sometimes, but the end result is almost always the same. The worst of it is that they always main-line you into one moral extreme or the…

I really don’t understand this obsession with consequences.

KRZ is extremely effective in letting you make very meaningful choice without those choices affecting anything at all, really. That’s possible, you know. There don’t have to be (big) consequences. The choice itself, even, can be meaningful.

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#32

Post by pagnotta »

patio11 wrote: post #11
germinalphrase wrote: post #2

Another attractive element of these games is the moral questions that sometimes arise. I know this is particularly true in "This War of Mine" (e.g. - choosing to take in a starving child that comes knocking on your door, but who also becomes a resource burden on your small tribe). Questioning and reflecting on decision making, moral choice, and consequences of (in)action are a central focus of literature study, so I…

This War of Mine is the only time I've ever felt genuinely troubled by a moral choice in a videogame, and it was for an unscripted reason. Spoiler in ROT13: Oehab gur pbbx jnf bar bs zl cnegl zrzoref. Ur jnf fubg va n enaqbz envq frireny qnlf ntb, naq jr'er bhg bs zrqvpvar naq onaqntrf. Vg vf irel pyrne gung Oehab jvyy qvr vs ur qbrf abg trg onaqntrq, cebonoyl jvguva 2 qnlf, juvpu zrnaf jr unir rknpgyl 1 avtug gb fpn…

I suppose this is not a language, is some kind of cypher, how do I read it, please?

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#33

Post by aptwebapps »

pagnotta wrote: post #32
patio11 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This War of Mine is the only time I've ever felt genuinely troubled by a moral choice in a videogame, and it was for an unscripted reason. Spoiler in ROT13: Oehab gur pbbx jnf bar bs zl cnegl zrzoref. Ur jnf fubg va n enaqbz envq frireny qnlf ntb, naq jr'er bhg bs zrqvpvar naq onaqntrf. Vg vf irel pyrne gung Oehab jvyy qvr vs ur qbrf abg trg onaqntrq, cebonoyl jvguva 2 qnlf, juvpu zrnaf jr unir rknpgyl 1 avtug gb fpn…

I suppose this is not a language, is some kind of cypher, how do I read it, please?

Paste the text here: http://www.rot13.com/index.php

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#34

Post by astrobe_ »

germinalphrase wrote: post #5
Zikes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moral" choices seem to be a trend lately, especially with BioWare RPGs and their ilk (Dragon Age, Mass Effect). Unfortunately, most of the consequences are fairly minor, mostly only revolving around the opinions of your in-game acquaintances. The events unfold a little differently sometimes, but the end result is almost always the same. The worst of it is that they always main-line you into one moral extreme or the…

This has been my experience as well. I am attracted to bringing games into the learning environment because they can offer unique opportunities for action/reaction/reflection (in addition to other benefits) - but I am indeed more interested in complicated decision making rather than simply choosing Red Team v. Blue Team. For instance, I would love to see a game like "Papers Please" with a stronger element of conseque…

I think that this is why the ethics question is ill-formed in video games: it is used as a mean to an end (i.e. what should I do in order to get this). Translated to real life, it results in a quite hypocritical and cynical behaviour (I'm nice in order to get that). Playing with morality implies playing with the players feelings (or rather the player plays with its own feelings), which in turn implies that the game have to build those feelings in the first place.

I can't help but thinking that there should be an AI for this.

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#36

Post by Sir_Substance »

The author is making a big point of banished being a game of inevitable demise, but that's not how I found it.

To me, it's a game of hope and industriousness. Where he sees starving workers staving off inevitable death, I see villagers keen to make their new settlement work.

I think there's a lot of room for interpretation both ways, which is great for the games, but it means this article is quite shallow and offers no real insight, because it's trying to build on a foundation that is viewed differently depending on who you are.

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#37

Post by Scaevolus »

germinalphrase wrote: post #5
Zikes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moral" choices seem to be a trend lately, especially with BioWare RPGs and their ilk (Dragon Age, Mass Effect). Unfortunately, most of the consequences are fairly minor, mostly only revolving around the opinions of your in-game acquaintances. The events unfold a little differently sometimes, but the end result is almost always the same. The worst of it is that they always main-line you into one moral extreme or the…

This has been my experience as well. I am attracted to bringing games into the learning environment because they can offer unique opportunities for action/reaction/reflection (in addition to other benefits) - but I am indeed more interested in complicated decision making rather than simply choosing Red Team v. Blue Team. For instance, I would love to see a game like "Papers Please" with a stronger element of conseque…

Papers Please does that. Depending on how you play the game, multiple different endings are possible. You can choose to assist resistance movements, rebel yourself, etc.

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#38

Post by ajuc »

Zikes wrote: post #3
germinalphrase wrote: post #2

Another attractive element of these games is the moral questions that sometimes arise. I know this is particularly true in "This War of Mine" (e.g. - choosing to take in a starving child that comes knocking on your door, but who also becomes a resource burden on your small tribe). Questioning and reflecting on decision making, moral choice, and consequences of (in)action are a central focus of literature study, so I…

"Moral" choices seem to be a trend lately, especially with BioWare RPGs and their ilk (Dragon Age, Mass Effect). Unfortunately, most of the consequences are fairly minor, mostly only revolving around the opinions of your in-game acquaintances. The events unfold a little differently sometimes, but the end result is almost always the same. The worst of it is that they always main-line you into one moral extreme or the…

Witcher 1 and 2 are RPGs that do this the right way. No morality meter, just hard choices without full knowledge (so you can't be sure which choice is good, often neither) and with delayed consequences (so players don't just reload).

And in TW2 they made a whole chapter (+-20% of the game content) different depending on your choice, with different map, different NPCs you meet, quests, and you get to know different aspects of the story (if you play just one version you won't get the whole image).

Re: A new wave of videogames offers lessons in powerlessness, scarcity and failure

#39

Post by on_and_off »

Good. I am so bored of the whole power trip trope which is pervading most video games. At this point, ennemies would have to trip on my sword in order to make some games easier. Arcade games tend to be 'artificially unfair' in order to make sure that the player will die and have to pay to continue. Many modern mainstream games take the opposite approach and make sure that the average game will feel like a demigod. It is not without merits, especially with a hero battling against oversized ennemies. For example, it is very gratifying to fight enemies 10 times as big as the protagonist of Darksiders. I feel like it is reaching a dead end though. Parkour / scaling in Assassin Creed is a one button affair. You just look at your hero do these feats. Platforming is equally easy in that game series, you just have to find the designed path thought up by the developers and press the right button, which is even conveniently displayed on the screen. Ezio is able to take on dozen of guards and I usually flee only because I am bored of the easy kills. Skyrim goes out of its way to make you feel like 'yet another chosen one', and judging from the game quest, you are litteraly the only person able to get anything done in that world. Not to mention that very soon you become a walking demigod able to kill anything from liches to dragons. I can't shake the feeling that these games are very condescending to the player. They avoid giving the player a real challenge in order to make sure that everybody can feel powerful with minimal effort.

I don't think that games have to be as brutal as Dark Souls or even unfair like Banished. Avoiding the 'suddenly all powerful chosen one' trope would be a good start. Please let me play a random schmuck that is not going to defeat all the demons of Hell and save the world all by himself.

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