Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports • Hacker News Board

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#371

Post by dlwj » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:39 AM UTC

Each social subgroup or culture maintains its identity through shared cultivated interest in some areas, and cultivated disinterest in others.

The degree to which this interest or disinterest is realized is determined by how much an individual wants to be part of a group.

Wine appreciation, which is associated with high status, attracts rather clunky attempts at cultivated interested.

Religious group detractors cultivate a far more antagonistic disinterest.

No one likes beer as children but because people want to fit in so much with the "fun" group, they cultivate heavy interests and tastes for it.

Sports for the most part is tied down to location. A small levels it associates you with your school, and at higher levels it associates you with your city, state, or even country.

Groups often compete against other groups for resources in a 0 sum game. Sports passion can actually be used to measure the level of "loyalty" a person has to a group. The most loyal people will put his or her group above other groups to the detriment of others.

(This nepotism is actually necessary for stable groups. We treat are friends and family this way. Also, if a morally superior alien race of 10 trillion decides the destruction of earth is a necessary evil, meritocracy requires we die willingly)

I don't care much about the state of the homeless in San Francisco. It makes me sound cold but it's the truth. To me, I don't understand why I should care more about this than the homeless in some other state, or the starving and dying in some other country.

People don't like these "free-agents" because they seem completely selfish and base everything on cold logic and meritocracy than warm immediate empathy. They can't be trusted to do what's right for the group, in fact, they may just jump ship when some other better group shows up.

Sports fanaticism is a reasonable measure of this.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#372

Post by FireBeyond » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:42 AM UTC

anextio wrote: post #288

FireBeyond wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's nice. What other corporate products must I consume in order to be a validated member of your social caste?" Go ahead, say, with a straight face, that such a remark was not effectively a paraphrasing of what I said and was a non-loaded question asked with sincerity. To claim that you were not implying some corporate brainwashing in what you said is, frankly, disingenuous.

Your characterization of a product successfully marketed to people as "corporate brainwashing" whenever you don't like someone pointing out that a thing is perpetuated by corporate profit motives is also disingenuous. I think the commenter was being a bit of an ass too, but I think he still has a defensible point, and it's not the absurd point that you're making it out to be.

I'll agree. There's a healthy middle ground and I was exaggerating for emphasis.

Suffice to say, this: I think that it's possible to enjoy sport at a professional / high level (or local for that matter), in itself, whilst still having something of a disdain for overly crass commercialization (which varies between sports).

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#373

Post by Thrymr » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:50 AM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #321

Implicated wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like sports culture deprives lots of regular public high school students of an education, and I don't think it's elitist at all to dislike professional sports for their contribution to this mess. While I respect your position I feel that you really don't understand the perspective of sports from the athletes side. You're completely glossing over the positives that sports bring to the lives of people involved…

That's not his point though. His point is that for every bit of handwringing of how ghastly some people's comments on sports are, there's the reality that the football coach is the highest (in the millions of dollars range) paid position at almost every university in the US, how the sporting department despite those figures manages to be a net budgetry drain on almost every school which has one, and the reality that…

> there's the reality that the football coach is the highest (in the millions of dollars range) paid position at almost every university in the US

Not only that, coaches are the highest paid public employees in most states [0].

[0] http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-...

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#374

Post by incompatible » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:52 AM UTC

arjn wrote: post #355

jliptzin wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail on the head. I've lived with football fans most of my life and have been exposed to it plenty of times. Even when I try to pay attention to it, I find it so boring that I zone out and begin thinking about other things without even realizing it. I have no problem with people who enjoy football and professional sports in general, but it's just not something I have an interest in.

I feel the same way. I've absolutely no interest in football even after trying a couple of times. I've also lost interest in other sports over time. It may be something to do with growing older and having other priorities.

I was interested in certain sports as a teenager, but grew out of it. I can think of a couple of reasons. Firstly I moved around a bit, to different cities and countries, and parochialism seems very silly. If you don't care which team wins, a lot of interest in sport disappears. Secondly the sports themselves are extremely repetitive. Once you've learned the rules and seen a few games, there's not much more to learn, it's just variations on a theme.

Edit: I'm referring to spectating, not active participation. I'm sure there's a lot more to learn, understand and enjoy if you actually play.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#375

Post by hiou » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 12:56 AM UTC

solson wrote: post #20

When you show overt contempt for sports you are showing contempt for most everybody and that is problem with your social skills. It's called being a snob. The disdain for working class culture among academics was part of the reason I choose not to pursue a formal higher education. I suspect this overt snootiness keeps many gifted working class kids from participating in higher education. I grew up working class and w…

I have found most people I've me that seemed to want to not like something probably had some deeper issues causing them to do so. My childhood was very encouraging and inviting so I developed many wildly different interests. Every thing, like every person, is interesting once you learn a bit about it/them.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#376

Post by hiou » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:01 AM UTC

copsarebastards wrote: post #249

solson wrote: post #20

When you show overt contempt for sports you are showing contempt for most everybody and that is problem with your social skills. It's called being a snob. The disdain for working class culture among academics was part of the reason I choose not to pursue a formal higher education. I suspect this overt snootiness keeps many gifted working class kids from participating in higher education. I grew up working class and w…

Cultivating an active ignorance about sports is stupid--knowing more things never hurt anyone. And I definitely see that trend in my peers. That said, I wouldn't go the further step to say that people should somehow be obligated to like sports. I don't like most sports--for reasons brought up, but not really expanded by the article. My main beef with sports is the effects sports have on education. My city spends mill…

I would say that your comments are exactly what the article is talking about. You've decided to exclude yourself because you feel the existence and importance placed on it by others is misplaced and essentially stupid. So you are in essence calling people who like professional sports at best misinformed and at worst stupid.

That's pretty much the definition of elitism as far as I know it. You think you know more than the common man.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#377

Post by beeworker » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:08 AM UTC

SapphireSun wrote: post #296

remarkEon wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I love sports, but every time I watch or support them I feel like I'm destroying civil society and undermining democracy and helping to destroy the last vestiges of effective public education. Hyperbole. In a lot of ways, sports can bring a city or group together in ways that other events can't. I feel like this is where I have to make the usual acknowledgement that yes of course the NFL is run by a bunch of morons…

It's the coming together / tribalism part that unnerves me. There's no rational reason for people to get so excited about it, so it rubs me the wrong way the same way most political rallies do. Small scale sports don't have quite the same effect on me, but large heavily marketed ones do as there is a pressure to conform (i.e. care, participate, hold certain opinions that positively reflect on the enterprise).

I also have the same reaction, but not so much for the irrationality of being excited. Generally it feels good to win, and it feels good to watch someone you like win, regardless of why you like them. What I really really dislike about the affair is group signaling. (Which is a signal of my belonging to the small group of people who detest group-signaling, but nevertheless...) Enjoy watching the game all you want, even as a crowd, but the moment the "we" comes out I have that reaction. I see so many society-wide problems stemming from mere classification of people into groups, and the so-natural next step of individuals of those groups making the group part of their identity. One of the creepiest social experiments I know about is the Robber's Cave experiment: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#378

Post by existencebox » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:11 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #364

skybrian wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is getting cause and effect backwards. Many (not all) kids who became intellectuals were the last picked for the team in sports and generally suffered due to it. I went through school dreading gym class. Deciding that sports was not important to me and spending time on things I was better at was in part emotional self-defense. Of course, dividing up into different tribes is not healthy. We should ideally…

I suspect that most kids who become intellectuals have parents who are intellectuals. Admittedly, my parents openly disdained pro and school sports, and rock music, when I was a kid. They are scientists, and into classical music. Today, I'm a scientist, I love classical and jazz, and am a performing jazz musician. Whatever "signaling" I might have received, I can't escape the fact that I love those art forms today. B…

I wouldn't say that's true. I had a father who pitched college baseball, and tried to instill the same values in me, and it only drove me further away from it. I'd rather we consider the alternate view, and rather than discussing how those who don't like spots are somehow infringing on those who are, select the MANY occasions (as in the parent post of school gym classes) where the opposite is certainly true; those who chose to abstain from sports are shamed and learn that laughing about their stance as a joke to both sides is a good way to disarm that.

The takeaway being, there are infinitely many different reasons to like or not like something. The fact that this comes up in particular for sports communicates to me that there's a different dynamic at play here. Do we often see this conflict for things like soy? Ballet? Curling? Sports in america seems to stand alone in that any deviance from the norm gets picked apart with a VERY fine toothed comb, perhaps as a factor of societal norms. I wonder if we'd see the same examination of soccer non-fans in the broader world or if this is a more american phenomena, I honestly don't know, and it asks many interesting questions.

Even beyond that though, I "enjoy" (sarcastically) how there's a tendency to turn differences into conflict. Anecdotally, choices around interest in sports seem to cue more dissent than as mentioned in many other areas, but I see similar trends in the "big three" of politics, religion, and money. Similar patterns have sparked in other areas (gender differences; and I'm probably risking a hailstorm for even mentioning this) as well, there are certain topics people seem to be less willing to "live and let live" about.

This turned into such a ramble. I may edit it later, I hope there are some useful thoughts in there somewhere.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#379

Post by murbard2 » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:12 AM UTC

The article is correct that one should not cultivate a disinterest in sports and talk about the "working class struggle". If you're going to be an elitist, do it right.

Spectator sports, rooting for a team, appeal to the most basic and stupid tribal instincts. This is why we end up with crappy policies, this is what we can't have nice thing.

So yes, it's fine to despise it, and to look down on people who make it an important part of their life.

Re: Cultivated Disinterest in Professional Sports

#380

Post by HarryHirsch » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:20 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #338

XorNot wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not his point though. His point is that for every bit of handwringing of how ghastly some people's comments on sports are, there's the reality that the football coach is the highest (in the millions of dollars range) paid position at almost every university in the US, how the sporting department despite those figures manages to be a net budgetry drain on almost every school which has one, and the reality that…

>how the sporting department despite those figures manages to be a net budgetry drain on almost every school which has one And so are music departments. Which I think is part of the point here. I firmly believe that playing right tackle can teach you just as much as playing the oboe, yet intellectuals tend to look down on former and praise the latter. Organized sports are not only a hobby and social gathering, but th…

Music departments are budget drains since when? The arts and humanities are actually rather cheap, they need nothing more than buildings, staff and a library. Science and engineering are the real whoppers, and as a rule cross-subsidized by A&H. Tuition per credit hour is the same, after all. The dean of the School of Arts & Sciences at a certain state school is on record saying that for the price of a chemistry professor she can pay a whole department of English.

That isn't the point. The point is that the mission of universities is academic pursuits, not athletics. If anyone wants to practice sports, power to him, but let him join the sports club, or let him start an inofficial intramurine league.

The wider point is that in America you can't earn much social capital by being knowledgeable about any academic subject, you have to be wealthy instead. That's a problem, and probably also explains many things about American society. Universities finally getting rid of organized sports might perhaps be able to change that.