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Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

syriza.net.gr

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Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#191

Post by chckn »

charonn0 wrote: post #82
teamhappy wrote: post #59

Most of you, dear Handesblatt readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. [...] Prejudice was never a good guide, [...] How does he not hear himself? Also, "Handelsblatt" is missing a letter. Anyway ... I reject the premise of his letter. He seems to think the purpose of the money was to help the greek people, and offers a more productive way of doing so. That'…

I expected that Germans might be sympathetic to a country whose economically struggling population are turning, in electorally significant numbers, to Fascism.

I expect that people do not judge Germans by one German's opinion.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#192

Post by chckn »

atmosx wrote: post #137
bostich wrote: post #54

I am German and have had a very negative opinion of Tsipras. He makes some very good points in this letter and his view seems to be consistent. I can understand his position and my opinion of him has improved a bit after reading the letter. Nevertheless I see no solution, only 3 possible bad outcomes: 1. Europe loans more money to Greece and we can be pretty certain that they can't pay it back. 2. Europe gifts money…

As a German, how do you feel about 3 April 1948[1]? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

I, as a German, feel good about the Marshall Plan. Do you suggest to implement something similar for Greece? I don't think a lot of Greeks will be in favor for it.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#193

Post by jahewson »

tspareme wrote: post #126
jahewson wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement about Germnay refusing to allow imports is manifestly false. The EU is a free trade area and its member states are not permitted to engage in such activities. The EU has its own courts to enforce such rules. It's certainly true that Germany is a net exporter: this is because of their ability and competitiveness in engineering and technology, combined with the fact that Germans are not big consumers and…

The issue here is that we know Greece is not as competitive in exports as Germany. So what can Greece do to run a trade surplus while in a common currency union with Germany? They are not able to depreciate their currency. They are not allowed to put up tariffs either. Also, where does the German do with their export surplus. They don't just hide it under the mattress. German banks is also looking for a outlet, howev…

Yes, that is the core issue: can the Euro sustain both Germany and Greece given how diverse their economies are? I have my doubts, but perhaps what we're seeing is an emerging solution wherein Germany subsidises the weaker members of the Euro indefinitely. That still doesn't absolve Greece of financial responsibility but it would support their position of having a sizeable portion of their debts written off. It's a sort of sovereign welfare state...

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#194

Post by jahewson »

rwissmann wrote: post #135
bildung wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > while refusing to allow equivalent imports > That very much is in citation needed territory, please give at least one example of how Germany is refusing intra-European imports in any category. (Not GP.) You are of course right that Germany has not created import tariffs or other direct and illegal options. OTOH the German government has implemented numerous actions that indirectly had wage-suppressing effects (wh…

Germany had anemic economic growth about 15-20 years ago. After hard political fighting these sort of reforms were enacted. Competition is global. Greece is not just not competitive with Germany, but also with China, the US, Japan, Australia, ... . That is the real problem.

Except that Greece isn't in a currency union with those other countries. If Greece had their own weak currency then it would make their exports cheaper, which might make them better off (except that leaving the Euro would trigger a financial collapse). China has been trying to keep the Yen cheap against the dollar for this reason, if your goods are cheap then ohers will buy more of them or prefer you over another producer.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#195

Post by lllllll »

tomp wrote: post #86
dpark wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgiven debt is not "paid by someone else". It's a write-off by the creditor. Creditors would likely not write off a bunch of debt and then lend Greece more money. Now, if the bailout actually paid off the creditors and Greece now only owes money to, e.g., Germany (the IMF, etc), then sure, the original creditors might extend new loans to Greece if Germany forgives the Greek debt. But then, that could happen anyway,…

Well, the creditors are mainly other EU countries, so it would arguable be "paid by someone else" - the countries' taxpayers.

Related relevant image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8Qf65ACYAAH3BR.jpg

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#196

Post by vermontdevil »

brianwawok wrote: post #107
mysticllama wrote: post #16

A CNN article from 2010 referenced 2008 government documents that said "6 in 10 Greeks don't pay income taxes" source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/31/greece.taxes/ I don't know what the rate of tax evasion is in other western countries, but I'm willing to wager the situation in Greece is dramatically worse. I remember reading a NYT article from the same year that provided further insight: Various studies,…

Here is something that maybe I am not understanding.. but saying that 6/10 greeks pay no income tax does not tell us how much tax evasion there is, right? From what I can google: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-house... 43% of Americans do not pay federal income tax (and some % of those get a net gain of federal income tax). Sure 60% is > 40%... but that could be due to a ratio of more people r…

And how many rich people pay their fair share of taxes in the US?

I think the issue is deeper than just not paying taxes. But that's just me.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#197

Post by atmosx »

peterfirefly wrote: post #183
atmosx wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German, how do you feel about 3 April 1948[1]? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

A state couldn't benefit from the Marshal plan without reforms, including collecting proper, truthful national statistics (through the forerunner institution to the OECD). The US didn't just hand out money willy-nilly. In the case of (West) Germany, they had lots of troops stationed in Germany who could accidentally break something if the country didn't happily reform practically everything.

No one is against reform in Greece. Literally no one (except maybe the far-left which is less than 5% of the population).

The thing is that all the reforms proposed by the Troika as of today were absolutely against boosting any form of healthy growth. The troika actively supported the governments which are responsible for Greece's troubles and extra-ordinary debt. That says a lot IMHO. I didn't get the feeling that the EU+ECB+IMF was interested in actually helping at any point of this negotiation.

So, I'm sorry but I'd rather for Greece to exit the Euro and let hell broke loose than continue down the road we've been for 6 years. After all the country is already in ruins.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#198

Post by imarg »

bibabo wrote: post #170
dandare wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? I thought the private creditors were already "haircutted", most of the Greek debts is to EU states and IMF.

Greece got a debt cut around 140B already.

Well sort of. Because after the haircut Greece owed more money than before.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#199

Post by atmosx »

chckn wrote: post #192
atmosx wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German, how do you feel about 3 April 1948[1]? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

I, as a German, feel good about the Marshall Plan. Do you suggest to implement something similar for Greece? I don't think a lot of Greeks will be in favor for it.

> Do you suggest to implement something similar for Greece? I don't think a lot of Greeks will be in favor for it.

Just read Varoufakis articles and you'll see that the current government would've take that proposal any day of the week.

Re: Open letter to German readers: What you were never told about Greece

#200

Post by nhaehnle »

mafribe wrote: post #178
nhaehnle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TheOtherHobbes used a bit of an ellipsis here. There is no outright refusal of imports by law, but there is a refusal to allow the kind of economic conditions (such as wage increases in line with productivity increases) that would lead to a balance of imports and exports. As for citations, a recent comparison of the relevant metric, the relative unit labor cost: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/i-do-not-th…

Germany deviates from the European norm by having products on offer that are globally competitive. What a crime. Let's make Europe more stable by turning every country into Greece!

Competitiveness is a matter not just of value, but also of price, which is largely a matter of how much you pay your employees. Germany achieves its competitiveness by paying employees badly. That is a not a virtue, it's a vice.

That's the key here, and again I encourage you to read and contemplate the post that I linked to, since it clarifies the issue.

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