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Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#71

Post by zaroth »

higherpurpose wrote: post #34
sarciszewski wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why even involve Google at all" "So essentially the government has carte blanche to get whatever they want" I think your quote answered your own question.

Yup. Going to the third party provider as if it owns your data is a complete bypass of the 4th amendment. To make an analogy it would be like the federal government having to serve a warrant/court order/gar order only to your local mayor to search your house without your permission. Imagine how messed up that would be. Yet, it's exactly what happens in the digital world, and somehow we've learned to take it for grant…

It just occurred to me, they figured out how to serve a complaint against your property (civil forfeiture) so I'm actually half surprised they don't serve warrants against the house not the house's occupants. Or even better, just serve the data itself; US Government versus 134,612 bytes of Data!

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#72

Post by lawnchair_larry »

tptacek wrote: post #50
Zigurd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe in charitable debate and skeptical inquiry. I believe in the odds. And the odds are that any technology that has a high potential to significantly add to surveillance capabilities has been exploited for that purpose either by hacking it or convincing (strong-arming if needed) the technology provider to cooperate. I don't deny that Google does a lot of great things in general, and in security research spec…

What exactly was it that you thought Matasano did, that the NSA might have ever leaned on them for anything? People on HN have historically had really weird ideas of how my work intersects with privacy. Matasano is a software engineering service.

You'd be surprised.

And yes I know what Matasano did. Which is why I say you'd be surprised.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#73

Post by harry8 »

fpgeek wrote: post #66
harry8 wrote: post #65

If you're a google employee and you see a gag order and disagree with it you almost certainly have the skills to leak it undetectably such that you can't be prosecuted because there is no evidence. I wonder, is that the right thing to do? How would you do it technically if you thought it was? Who would you leak it to?

Even granting your premise that a Google employee could leak the gag order undetectably (and I'm not confident about that, since the universe of people to investigate would be relatively small), there would still be serious repercussions to deal with. At bottom, there's someone at Google in charge of overseeing the gag order. If the gag order leaks and they can't figure out who's responsible, I'm pretty sure they end…

I'm less cynical. I don't think they can prosecute someone without evidence beyond reasonable doubt. Every single google employee who has to act on the order and be gagged by it has to see the order and verify its authenticity or else their actions would be illegal. "it must be one of these 50 google employees" might well be completely true, but not enough to prosecute any one of them.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#74

Post by harry8 »

tonfa wrote: post #44
doctorshady wrote: post #38

I like how any questioning of Google's integrity is being shamelessly downvoted here.

Well, one of the target of the warrant is also supporting Google here: https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/560575339450347520 https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/560579349460815872

Nope, nothing there supports google. He's claiming to have played them to use their resources in support of his interests. He's not endorsing them at all. (Maybe he would or has elsewhere but not there).

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#76

Post by funinobu »

tptacek wrote: post #52
Zigurd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matatsano was probably too small. Didn't it get bought by a larger firm?

You didn't answer my question. What exactly do you think it is NSA wants firms like Matasano to do? Stop being evasive. Say something specific, so we can actually address the innuendo. It seems much more likely that NSA would lean on your consulting practice: you build telephony and communications software. Obviously, I don't think NSA leans on companies like yours either.

The comment at the top of the thread is about Google. Not everything is about you.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#77

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72
tptacek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly was it that you thought Matasano did, that the NSA might have ever leaned on them for anything? People on HN have historically had really weird ideas of how my work intersects with privacy. Matasano is a software engineering service.

You'd be surprised. And yes I know what Matasano did. Which is why I say you'd be surprised.

"Does", not "did". But I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#78

Post by tptacek »

funinobu wrote: post #76
tptacek wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer my question. What exactly do you think it is NSA wants firms like Matasano to do? Stop being evasive. Say something specific, so we can actually address the innuendo. It seems much more likely that NSA would lean on your consulting practice: you build telephony and communications software. Obviously, I don't think NSA leans on companies like yours either.

The comment at the top of the thread is about Google. Not everything is about you.

I think you should tell that to the person who brought me up.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#79

Post by sarciszewski »

tptacek wrote: post #78
funinobu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment at the top of the thread is about Google. Not everything is about you.

I think you should tell that to the person who brought me up.

Sorry Thomas, I only referenced you because I thought the post in question was worth sharing in this context.

Re: Google says it fought gag orders in WikiLeaks investigation

#80

Post by tptacek »

tedunangst wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly was it that you thought Matasano did, that the NSA might have ever leaned on them for anything? People on HN have historically had really weird ideas of how my work intersects with privacy. Matasano is a software engineering service.

I think we all know Matasano were the masterminds behind Regin.

I meant besides Regin.
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