Live data from Hacker News

'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

theregister.co.uk

101–107 of 107 posts

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#101
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's definitely lost their way. Got too big, too fast and didn't preserve the culture. The biggest an organization can get and hope to have a reasonable chance of not going evil is probably some multiple of Dunbar's number. I think realistically the uppermost limit on it is going to be Dunbar's squared and assuming everyone has really high social skills and no life outside work then it's 250*250 = 62k people. But…

Everything I've read suggests that the G+ / GMail / YouTube integration was forced onto the various parts of Google by executive fiat: The rank & file Google employees were against it, but a company is not a democracy so it was forced on them & by extension us. Executive culture tends to laud the "visionary leader" who pushes their vision on everyone else. When that vision is wrong-headed you end up with situations l…

There would have been many ways that integration could have occurred, so that executive direction isn't inherently the problem - it's more if there was no one to direct the nuances of doing then there's a problem.

That kind of nuanced understanding is the difference usually between successfully companies and their unsuccessful companies.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#102
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really it's bizarre because the service they're offering on its own is quite valuable, so they'll get user adoption eventually I imagine - maybe not 100% but that's greedy or unreasonable at minimum. Far more damage is done with an aggressive/controlling stance, future long-term revenues and negative mindshare.

Google's definitely lost their way. Got too big, too fast and didn't preserve the culture. The biggest an organization can get and hope to have a reasonable chance of not going evil is probably some multiple of Dunbar's number. I think realistically the uppermost limit on it is going to be Dunbar's squared and assuming everyone has really high social skills and no life outside work then it's 250*250 = 62k people. But…

Interesting analysis btw - thanks for sharing. I wonder if this is per company or per leader for trickle down effect - I imagine it is per leader, the one setting pace, vision, culture, etc.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#103
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's definitely lost their way. Got too big, too fast and didn't preserve the culture. The biggest an organization can get and hope to have a reasonable chance of not going evil is probably some multiple of Dunbar's number. I think realistically the uppermost limit on it is going to be Dunbar's squared and assuming everyone has really high social skills and no life outside work then it's 250*250 = 62k people. But…

Interesting analysis btw - thanks for sharing. I wonder if this is per company or per leader for trickle down effect - I imagine it is per leader, the one setting pace, vision, culture, etc.

My take is that separating the two is basically intractable and I wouldn't even try to quantify it.

One person doesn't have to work very hard to communicate all his/her ideas and priorities to him/her self so there's zero communication overhead there. A few executives are going to have to communicate a lot in order to all stay on the "same page" regarding the multitude of issues that a company might face trying to execute the overarching vision irrespective of it that's from one or a couple of people.

The more time these people spend communicating with one another to ensure that they all understand one another, the less time they have to spend with their group managers, thus lowing the number of groups they can oversee. As the number of groups an exec can oversee drops, you need more execs.

But as you get more execs, now you have a coordination problem at the executive level. The problem is recursive. The CEO can only oversee so many executives, so you get a CEO/COO/CFO triple team. But those people have to spend time ensuring that they all understand one another. Rinse and repeat.

Obviously there's a "management ratio" that a person could glean out of all of this and just employ that to structure an organization indefinitely, at least in theory. The problem is that all communication is lossy. If you can communicate with 85% effectiveness (which is PHENOMENAL!) then that kind of limits how many layers you can use.

0.85 ^ 2 = 72%

0.85 ^ 3 = 64%

0.85 ^ 4 = 52%

0.85 ^ 5 = 44%

0.85 ^ 6 = 37%

This sort-of tracks with real world businesses too, it's not often that you see an org chart which has 10 layers on it because the company would be totally dysfunctional and go bust very rapidly.

The "Peter Principle" applies to businesses too, the continue to grow and gobble up more market share until eventually they stop being as effective and growth slows or stops.

It applies to society as well as Joseph Tainter points out in "The Collapse of Complex Societies" each additional unit of complexity has a fixed cost and diminishing returns for the society (or the company, or whatever) until eventually you're adding complexity which is a net negative. Things then start to go downhill.

Obviously there are exceptions to this (think "natural monopolies" and the like) and there may be years or decades of lag between the start of net negative complexity growth and collapse. Unless there's "refactoring" of the system where complexity is removed somehow, everything will eventually trend towards collapse. And achieving refactoring in real life is generally impossible since there tend to be entrenched interests in favor of some complexity since it directly benefits them.

A great example of this is the healthcare debate. Doesn't matter which side you're on. Complexity nearly always wins.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#104

The article reads like a pro-copyright/pro-SOPA hit piece, I would take it with a grain of salt. I don't see anything too evil here, just reasonable business decision forced to them by the ridiculous copyright framework. Google came with a simple solution: their way or the highway. Sounds harsh but anything else would require massive man-hours of development and lawyer-vetting. They rather pull your stuff rather than…

Wait what? Have you read the conversation?

It's clear in the conversation that she could always just quit this deal and move to the normal Youtube Partner program to make cash out of ads like any other partner.

What she would lose is automatic content identification that would also give her ads revenues from OTHER video that has her content. There's no alternative to that, she would have to send a ton of DMCA herself to remove that other content and that doesn't even allow her to get that revenue.

I don't see this as a solution to the ridiculous copyright framework, it's a way to abuse the ridiculous copyright framework. They have a great tool that can help her fight against copyright infringement but the only way she can still use it is to either abandon her YouTube revenue or to give YouTube all her music right.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#105
Dear journalists who are covering this story. (1) get the actual contract. Does it back up what this artist is claiming? (2) Find out the name of the Google employee who was telling the artist these things, corroborate the testimony of the artist and determine whether the employee was a high-level executive or lawyer within Google, or if they were just a customer service representative who had no authority to be giving legal advice to a customer on behalf of the company.

With all due respect this article does not go into any specific detail of what real evidence exists to back up this story.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#106
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting analysis btw - thanks for sharing. I wonder if this is per company or per leader for trickle down effect - I imagine it is per leader, the one setting pace, vision, culture, etc.

My take is that separating the two is basically intractable and I wouldn't even try to quantify it. One person doesn't have to work very hard to communicate all his/her ideas and priorities to him/her self so there's zero communication overhead there. A few executives are going to have to communicate a lot in order to all stay on the "same page" regarding the multitude of issues that a company might face trying to ex…

I think communication structures should inherently be clear enough to pass all critical information over, and if there become communication issues or misunderstandings then you have to eliminate that communication break - whatever that means.

I feel some of these issues can be managed by having specialized teams - but those teams would have to managing a context, not merely certain functions or tasks of a business, otherwise they won't have their hands and attention on everything that will matter.

85% communication effectiveness seems very possible - at least with enough time and enough opportunities.

Re: 'YOUTUBE is EVIL': Somebody had a tape running, Google

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a (c) as you describe it, OP just neglected to mention it. The third option is to just monetize videos uploaded to the official channel. They can continue uploading only specific songs they want to monetize on their channel.

I thought that if Keating didn't agree to (b), her channel would be removed?

That was the initial threat; later the rep mentioned a "work around" where her channel would not be removed.
Post reply on HN