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How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

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Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#81

Post by moogleii »

derekp7 wrote: post #76
moogleii wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me using a plane would be a bit of a slippery slope then. A commercial airplane's main purpose is to access somewhere beyond one's own community, and the experiences of international travel to a foreign land will change you (not to mention, I'm curious why they would target the Philippines vs any modern local American city). But people will do as they do, I suppose.

They aren't opposed to an experience changing them. And most things are guidelines to make choices, not absolutes. In this case, going on a mission was a higher priority, and the most effective way to get to the target was via air travel. If there was an alternative then they would take it. This decision matrix isn't unique to the Amish -- people do it every day. For example, I want to save money. But I also want to…

>They aren't opposed to an experience changing them. And most things are guidelines to make choices, not absolutes. In this case, going on a mission was a higher priority, and the most effective way to get to the target was via air travel. If there was an alternative then they would take it.

It's not so much the experience change I'm pointing out, rather that that will bring foreign influence from outside (and obviously foreign influence has occurred because they are using tractors and diesel from the other comments.)

And if we're considering a decision matrix that tries to minimize outside influence, that still doesn't explain why the Philippines vs any where in North America, really.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#82

Post by michaelbuckbee »

mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

It's probably too snarky - but The Onion has an actually fairly compelling narrative around vaccination that ends up kind of chilling:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-b...

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#83

Post by harshmap »

mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

Nobody was emotionally invested in the systematic abuse of large aquatic mammals except some really messed up individuals.

There are groups of people who will go so far as to claim religious exceptions to vaccines for their children.

It's worth a shot, though. I'd watch it.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#84

Post by chrisBob »

mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with Fox News encouraging people to get vaccines.

I don't get the impression that the documentary watching crowd overlaps with anti-vaxers too much.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#85

Post by chatwinra »

mikeash wrote: post #54
agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Got a cite for that "seven years" figure? According to this web page, lots of vaccines last more than 7 years, with some lasting for life: http://www.traveldoctor.co.nz/vaccinations.aspx Of those that don't last for life, adults do get booster shots. I don't know why you think they don't. I get a flu shot every year and I get boosters for other diseases every so often when I have a physical. I don't immunize my child…

It's great to see people asking for citations. I just wish that sort of mentality existed in the everyday world.

At the moment newspaper articles, tv news reports, etc can all get away with discussing science (and science-related topics) with citing ANYTHING.

I'm not saying it'll solve the vaccine crisis, but in the long run, I think the key is getting citations for statements of facts into public discourse. (then you have to worry about the quality of the stuff cited, but that can be the next step).

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#86

Post by HillRat »

derekp7 wrote: post #38
saltysugar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that's convenient for them, I guess?

What it boils down to, is whether or not taking advantage of a technology puts them under the influence of those outside their community. For example, if they use electricity then they have to be involved with the affairs of the town, and not self-reliant. But they can choose to use a diesel engine to power equipment for their farms, as they have the ability to make their own bio-fuel. And they use modern refrigerati…

Very good explanation! I'll also add that some Amish (and somewhat more Mennonite) communities actually OK laptops and cellphones, while desktop computers and landlines are eschewed. (Or, to use a somewhat older example, some communities accepted phones that were located outside the house, leading to phones mounted on poles placed suspiciously close to the kitchen window.)

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#87

Post by 13years »

robert_tweed wrote: post #27
mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

But this logic can be extended to anything. As far as risk of death, the flu still tops all others for which there are vaccines. If someone has the flu, by this logic they are a risk to society. A personal choice to go out in public would be criminal. Got the flu, you need to be quarantined. And the greatest risk of spread of anything is personal hygiene. If you haven't washed your hands after each sneeze, then that might just be a crime. The consequences of just living are deadly. Everyone will die from something at some point, but when protecting society extends beyond what individuals can do to protect themselves you no longer have a free society.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#88

Post by [deleted] »

digi_owl wrote: post #33
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

[deleted]

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#89

Post by freshyill »

skynetv2 wrote: post #32
larsiusprime wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not understand the Amish. They do not have some simplistic "all modern technology is bad" ban. They selectively use some modern technologies, and eschew others.

my house builder was amish. He OWNED all the equipment (huge tractors, cranes, etc.), he will ride in them but he WONT drive them. He hired someone else to drive. And he would stand on the crane to reach the roof. And he has no TV and stitches his own clothes etc. So, while I am not against or for their way of life, one can plainly see them adapting to new way of life but still denying something as basic as vaccinati…

It's not uncommon to see Amish stands at farmers' markets in parts of Pennsylvania, far from anywhere a horse and buggy could reasonably get them to. I asked some friends in college about it (farmers themselves) and it kind of blew my mind when they told me the Amish just get a ride with someone else.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#90

Post by IvyMike »

mrfusion wrote: post #22

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

The whole herd immunity bit of vaccines requires that people understand just a tiny, tiny bit of very easy math.

So we're probably fucked.

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