Earlier quoted context omitted.
[deleted]
>> If they are refusing vaccinations on religious grounds Read the article. They aren't and have now started taking vaccines.
[deleted]
How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
71–80 of 142 posts
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#72it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…
Polio is about literal shit in the water in places like India, not so much the vaccines. Polio was eliminated in the developed world mostly by way of water chlorination. I'm not an "anti-vaxer" and am not well read on the subject of vaccination, but online discussions of this topic seem essentially religious. People who clearly have no particular expertise go on about how we will be damned if all are not vaccinated.…
I'm not terribly well-informed about the evidence linking vaccines to death, so I briefly looked this up: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#cause ("the risk of death from vaccines is 'extraordinarily low'" -- quoting a IOM 1994 report) Do you have links to more recent and more informative publications from widely accepted sources that I should look at?
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anything that's convenient for them, I guess?
What it boils down to, is whether or not taking advantage of a technology puts them under the influence of those outside their community. For example, if they use electricity then they have to be involved with the affairs of the town, and not self-reliant. But they can choose to use a diesel engine to power equipment for their farms, as they have the ability to make their own bio-fuel. And they use modern refrigerati…
It seems to me using a plane would be a bit of a slippery slope then. A commercial airplane's main purpose is to access somewhere beyond one's own community, and the experiences of international travel to a foreign land will change you (not to mention, I'm curious why they would target the Philippines vs any modern local American city). But people will do as they do, I suppose.
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#74[deleted]
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#75I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…
"I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary."
I am, sadly, not optimistic that this would help.
The anti vaccine crowd, much like other groups and belief systems (even ones you and I might be part of) are as much a statement of politics and self actualization as they are of any rational belief system.
The "facts" are simply after the fact justifications, conveniently chosen, to bolster their existing viewpoints.
So, no, unfortunately, I don't think a better presentation of the facts is going to change a lot of these minds.
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
What it boils down to, is whether or not taking advantage of a technology puts them under the influence of those outside their community. For example, if they use electricity then they have to be involved with the affairs of the town, and not self-reliant. But they can choose to use a diesel engine to power equipment for their farms, as they have the ability to make their own bio-fuel. And they use modern refrigerati…
It seems to me using a plane would be a bit of a slippery slope then. A commercial airplane's main purpose is to access somewhere beyond one's own community, and the experiences of international travel to a foreign land will change you (not to mention, I'm curious why they would target the Philippines vs any modern local American city). But people will do as they do, I suppose.
They aren't opposed to an experience changing them. And most things are guidelines to make choices, not absolutes. In this case, going on a mission was a higher priority, and the most effective way to get to the target was via air travel. If there was an alternative then they would take it.
This decision matrix isn't unique to the Amish -- people do it every day. For example, I want to save money. But I also want to work at a job. To get to the job I have to travel. I choose to drive to the job (incurring vehicle expenses), whereas I have the alternative of walking (would take several hours) or cycling (too lazy, too cold). Therefore I choose to spend money on gas instead of either not working or walking to work.
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.
Reading the article, the community backed off from vaccination following two kids having a bad reaction to an MMR vaccine. It wasn't "personal choice" or "religious exception." They had a bad experience and were scared away.
I think you point out the problem of dialog. It is assumed anti-vaxers are anti-science, religious, uneducated or anti-gov. Although this may apply to some, it doesn't explain the majority and the rapid growth.
There is no shortage of educated doctors, former employees of drug companies, and data from CDC etc that is used for the anti vax argument. To convince someone of a point, one needs to not start from the position the other person has any of these stereotype labels. You need to start from educating yourself of their opposing argument and realize it is supported by real data. Then the discussion becomes more appropriate around the validity of data, its interpretation etc.
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.
People must always have a choice to vaccinate or not, forcing it upon them will do nobody any good because it will only increase the distrust of government. That said, if you don't vaccinate, you are a threat to the public and I do think you should be banned from public schools, public transportation, public gatherings and should have to explain to anyone you physically interact with that you are a risk to them and t…
Who said anything about force? It's mainly a problem of education. What we're talking about is, for example, an emotive documentary about some sick kids who couldn't be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons, and should have been protected by the herd immunity that anti-vaccination is destroying. Maybe have them in the same ward as some sick, voluntarily unvaccinated kids for good measure, interspersed with various scientific explanations of how minor the risks of vaccination reactions are, and that there is no connection with autism especially.
Science has to fight an uphill battle, because facts and statistics are cold, whereas a single story of "my kid got sick right after being vaccinated and what if that happened to your kid?" is emotive and provocative.
A documentary telling the other side of the story in a way that most people can relate to it emotionally could have a huge impact. No need to make anything mandatory if people understand the balance of risks properly.
Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak
#79it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…
I grew up in India. It wasn't uncommon at all to see people of my parents' generation with pockmarks from Small Pox or handicaps (and stories of deaths) from polio. Their generation saw first hand the horrors of these diseases and recognized the importance of vaccines. They still speak fondly of how lucky it is that vaccines were available by the time their kids (my generation) were born.
So developing countries are pretty serious about vaccinations.
However, things are changing with the new generation. The new generation (born in 70s/80s) have been exposed to far less horrors and especially among the upper-middle class folks, there are strains of anti-vax there too. Let's not forget, in countries like India (in my experience), homeopathy and other pseudoscientific 'cures' are more popular than in the developed world (probably due to the fact that the average person in the developed world has better access to good modern-medicine care).
The health problems in the developing world are in areas like maternal and neonatal health, where the consequences of poor care aren't as obvious or direct. Atul Gawande points out that this is a bit like how we aren't as afraid of the risk of auto accidents as we are of serial killers, even though the former is astronomically more likely to kill a person than the latter [1].
[1] Atul Gawande, "Slow Ideas," The New Yorker, July 2013: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/slow-ideas