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A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

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Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#41

Post by afro88 »

byEngineer wrote: post #32
nostrademons wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's historical precedent for legalized heroin - it's the opium dens of the mid/late 19th century. I don't think that's a world that many people want to go back to. Most of the time when people talk about drug legalization, they mean things like marijuana, LSD, or ecstasy.

why not to legalize something that hurts just the one who takes it? The same logic would require us to delegalize alcohol. Remember, we had booze dealers with machine guns terrorizing whole cities, like Chicago, before we came back to our senses and legalized it. Can you see Corona dealers fighting with Coors dealers for a territory to sell beer? Why not? This is the EXACT reality of 1920s in this country. I don't ca…

From what I understand, heroin when injected is so addictive that using it even once can put you on a path you never would have gone anywhere near. It takes rational thought out of the occasion, changes your personality and your goals - your life becomes about getting your next fix and you'll do anything to get it.

Beer, weed, ecstacy, etc don't have that same steep addictive power, so aren't dangerous in that way. So it can't be so easily compared to alcohol since alcohol has a much more gradual addiction curve whereas heroin is much much steeper.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#42

Post by cmdkeen »

stickfigure wrote: post #35
cmdkeen wrote: post #13

There are a few interesting takeaways: - Pain perscriptions as a gateway to more hardcore drug use that destroys life, it doesn't sound like this individual had any "liberty" to make choices once he had become hooked on painkillers - Heroin addictions are incredibly expensive in monetary terms, at $3,500 a week the price reduction would have to be huge before any legal drug wouldn't continue to create acquisitive cri…

...at $3,500 a week the price reduction would have to be huge before any legal drug wouldn't continue to create acquisitive crime to fund it I infer from this statement that you believe that, in the case of legalization, the price would still be high enough to require crime. Do you have any reason to believe that heroin is inherently more expensive to manufacture than, say, aspirin? Also, unless heroin addiction skew…

The UK estimates that between a third and a half of all acquisitive crime in the UK is committed by class A drug users.

You're assuming that in the case of legalisation there wouldn't be sin taxes, which given alcohol and cigarettes (and indeed weed) would be incredibly unlikely.

The problem with heroin is that once you are abusing it you need more and more but it starts to destroy your ability to earn the funds to pay for it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/financial-cost-of...

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#43

Post by xyzzy123 »

hessenwolf wrote: post #38
girvo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin is... Interesting. I was an addict for 6 years. I ran two businesses (one successfully), held down excellent jobs for amazing agencies, built cool stuff, had numerous relationships that were both good and bad. Most of heroin's issues arise because of its illegality, coupled with its price. I was spending $400 a day. It's nearly impossible to keep afloat with that sort of outgoing expense. Heroin also makes me…

This is interesting, as it turns my viewpoint on its head. I firmly believed heroin addicts were all zombies. You are arguing they are quite completely saveable. It changes my view on whether it is useful to help somebody. Do you have any references for this?

I think you might be surprised by the number of functional heroin "addicts" there are. There are a lot of people holding down "good" jobs while using.

I don't feel great about posting non-throway, but hey.

My anecdata (10 > N It's a thing you can actually grow out of, too. The people who don't usually have other problems.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#44

Post by brainburn »

norswap wrote: post #17

Trying to sway the jury with emotional impact rather than appeals to reason is not how it should be done.

Yeah I wonder what other purpose this testimony could have.

Seems to me a moment where a lawyer in the movies would shout 'objection, relevancy' or something.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#45

Post by byEngineer »

afro88 wrote: post #41
byEngineer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not to legalize something that hurts just the one who takes it? The same logic would require us to delegalize alcohol. Remember, we had booze dealers with machine guns terrorizing whole cities, like Chicago, before we came back to our senses and legalized it. Can you see Corona dealers fighting with Coors dealers for a territory to sell beer? Why not? This is the EXACT reality of 1920s in this country. I don't ca…

From what I understand, heroin when injected is so addictive that using it even once can put you on a path you never would have gone anywhere near. It takes rational thought out of the occasion, changes your personality and your goals - your life becomes about getting your next fix and you'll do anything to get it. Beer, weed, ecstacy, etc don't have that same steep addictive power, so aren't dangerous in that way. S…

Give me some real science here instead of BS propaganda of people interested in keeping it illegal, like law enforcement and their budget, like mafia and their income.

I heard exactly the same form school teacher about marijuana. I heard the same about alcohol and native American Indians. This is all BS. Give me science, solid proofs, not scary stories for 6 year olds.

And then again. Even if it is true. How is that your business? Somebody hurting themselves and you decide it is illegal for them at the same time buying a gun that can hurt others and you. This all complete nonsense, not based on our freedoms , Constitution, tradition, but some middle ages hysteria witch a bunch of ladies screaming delegalize alcohol because it is destroying my family.

We had it, this is BS, this doesnt work and first of all is none of your business what chemicals other people take in their time using their money. Unless you have a vested interest in keeping it illegal, like you are in a gang, you are a dealer or law enforcement. There is no logical reason to support drugs delegalization except for these two: dealing it or catching dealers. Because dealing and catching would be extinct without proginition the same way you don't buy Corona on a corner of a street from armed gangster.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#46

Post by byEngineer »

cmdkeen wrote: post #40
byEngineer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not to legalize something that hurts just the one who takes it? The same logic would require us to delegalize alcohol. Remember, we had booze dealers with machine guns terrorizing whole cities, like Chicago, before we came back to our senses and legalized it. Can you see Corona dealers fighting with Coors dealers for a territory to sell beer? Why not? This is the EXACT reality of 1920s in this country. I don't ca…

You don't have to be in favour of the current war on drugs to be in favour of heroin being illegal - and this is key selling heroin being illegal. Even Portugal, held up as the example of decriminalization only decriminalized possession not distribution. Being a heroin addict should be treated as a social/medical problem and people given all the help they can to get clean, but we absolutely shouldn't be encouraging p…

of course, you just want to make sure that Al Capone still has his stream of income. And how exactly does it make it better for society at large?

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#47

Post by maccard »

nostrademons wrote: post #27
maccard wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heroin isn't weed. It destroys lives of its users Well, no more than any other addiction to opiates. The issue with heroin addiction is that 1) it's illegal; (in many places) 2) it's expensive as hell. Clean Heroin by itself has no majorly bad side effects that aren't associated with other (legal and regularly used/abused) opiates like oxy/hydrocodene. Constipation and cotton mouth are about all that comes to mind.…

This isn't really true, pharmacologically. One way to measure the safety of a drug is the therapeutic index [1], basically the ratio of the lethal dose to the effective dose. It's basically how much of a margin of error you have when administering the drug before it'll kill you. Morphine has a TI of around 70, marijuana and LSD are > 1000, codeine is 20, alcohol is around 10, and heroin is 5 [2]. [1] http://en.wikipe…

And even lower again is Paracetamol/Acetaminophen (Tylenol if you're in the US), with the fatal dosage being as low as 3 times the recommended dosage [1]. I can walk into a pharmacy here and buy enough of it to shut down my liver for less than a pound.

I get what you're saying, but if you're talking about overdosing, then I think it's fair to say Heroin is absolutely lethal. But if used responsibly (I know, I know) it's safe.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#48

Post by maxerickson »

afro88 wrote: post #41
byEngineer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not to legalize something that hurts just the one who takes it? The same logic would require us to delegalize alcohol. Remember, we had booze dealers with machine guns terrorizing whole cities, like Chicago, before we came back to our senses and legalized it. Can you see Corona dealers fighting with Coors dealers for a territory to sell beer? Why not? This is the EXACT reality of 1920s in this country. I don't ca…

From what I understand, heroin when injected is so addictive that using it even once can put you on a path you never would have gone anywhere near. It takes rational thought out of the occasion, changes your personality and your goals - your life becomes about getting your next fix and you'll do anything to get it. Beer, weed, ecstacy, etc don't have that same steep addictive power, so aren't dangerous in that way. S…

A single dose is unlikely to lead to physical dependence. Powerful opiates are often administered through an IV for things like oral surgery (my recollection of the sedation I had when I had my wisdom teeth out definitely includes euphoria in the moments before I fell asleep).

The issue is probably mostly that many of the people at a point where the first dose seems like a good idea are going to also think the second dose is a good idea.

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#49

Post by girvo »

hessenwolf wrote: post #38
girvo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin is... Interesting. I was an addict for 6 years. I ran two businesses (one successfully), held down excellent jobs for amazing agencies, built cool stuff, had numerous relationships that were both good and bad. Most of heroin's issues arise because of its illegality, coupled with its price. I was spending $400 a day. It's nearly impossible to keep afloat with that sort of outgoing expense. Heroin also makes me…

This is interesting, as it turns my viewpoint on its head. I firmly believed heroin addicts were all zombies. You are arguing they are quite completely saveable. It changes my view on whether it is useful to help somebody. Do you have any references for this?

I've shared my experiences a number of times, and you'd be amazed how many other programmers have contacted me to express their situation. "Functional" addicts are far more numerous than common knowledge would have you believe, but the stigma is so great that it's something that remains rather impossible to find out.

Heres an interesting fact. About 23% of people who use heroin (not opiates in general, heroin specifically) become addicts[0]. I've always found that rather interesting, and matches up perfectly with my anecdotal experience. I'm one of the 23% unfortunately.

Edit: As I said in a comment above, no-one wants to remain on heroin forever. You truly will want to stop at some point, even if it causes no issues in your life (good luck with that!) -- every addict I've known has hit that point eventually. I did. I was just lucky my government and society supported me in getting clean. Others in other countries aren't so lucky, and I think that's a shame.

[0] http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/heroin

Re: A Heroin Dealer Tells the Silk Road Jury What It Was Like to Sell Drugs Online

#50

Post by girvo »

andrey-p wrote: post #34
girvo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin is... Interesting. I was an addict for 6 years. I ran two businesses (one successfully), held down excellent jobs for amazing agencies, built cool stuff, had numerous relationships that were both good and bad. Most of heroin's issues arise because of its illegality, coupled with its price. I was spending $400 a day. It's nearly impossible to keep afloat with that sort of outgoing expense. Heroin also makes me…

Thanks for sharing this. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find the experience of getting rid of that habit? What got you to finally try and defeat it?

Getting off it was difficult. I couldn't have done it without the amazing support of my government, despite it's rather draconian drug laws. I've been clean for three years now. The impetus for getting off of it were the cost (I was using 1.5 grams per day), the illegality (I didn't want to risk my future any more).

But, the key reason? I didn't want to take it any more. A well known fact among addict circles, is that there will come a time when you're done taking it. The problem is, unless you were lucky to live in a country like mine, doing so without the support of society when it is so stigmatized is supremely difficult. It's an interesting problem.

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