Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 134 posts

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#121

Post by Vendan »

maxlybbert wrote: post #118
cc439 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chicken pox vaccine is included to prevent shingles. You will be long gone by the time your child is a senior citizen and vulnerable to the relapse but it's a horrible experience for the elderly.

Unless there's a detail that I'm not aware of, vaccination at, say, 18 should be as effective against shingles as vaccination at 4.

Shingles isn't a separate disease. If you had chicken pox, you have the shingles virus in you already. If you had the chicken pox vaccine before you got exposed to chicken pox, you don't. And the only shingles specific vaccine is only for ages 50+, which isn't terribly useful for people like me, who get it at age 27.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#122

Post by jrs235 »

Vendan wrote: post #95
cc439 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chicken pox vaccine is included to prevent shingles. You will be long gone by the time your child is a senior citizen and vulnerable to the relapse but it's a horrible experience for the elderly.

shingles isn't just for old people, I'm 27 and I had it. Wish I hadn't. Caught it early and the doctor said I was lucky, but it still hurt to even move.

As I mentioned on a sibling post, I too got shingles at a younger age.

Just prior to rearing its ugly blisters, were you stressed physically, emotionally, and/or mentally? From my understanding shingles is able to come out when the immune system is weak/compromised, often times to due high stress levels. I know when my showed up I was extremely stressed.

I know a few others who have had shingles in their late 20's early 30's too. Not sure if it's becoming more prevalent or just more recognized/talked about but I think people should be more informed to recognize early symptoms so as to treat it ASAP.

For others reading, when my shingles showed up I recall a funny tingling sensation which after a few days turned into more of a burning sensation. You will only feel it on one side of your body. My singles came out around the S2 and S3 dermatomes (http://webpresencepartners.com/wp-content/uploads/cssmap/201...) on my right side. If hurt to sit, it hurt to stand, it hurt to move... but it went away after only a few days thank goodness! Shingles often starts presenting itself in one of two dermatomes. If you're not familiar with dermatomes I suggest you due a quick five minute search and read on them.

ADD: Good info: http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/shingles/n...

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#123

Post by jrs235 »

Vendan wrote: post #121
maxlybbert wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there's a detail that I'm not aware of, vaccination at, say, 18 should be as effective against shingles as vaccination at 4.

Shingles isn't a separate disease. If you had chicken pox, you have the shingles virus in you already. If you had the chicken pox vaccine before you got exposed to chicken pox, you don't. And the only shingles specific vaccine is only for ages 50+, which isn't terribly useful for people like me, who get it at age 27.

According to this http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-144377/zostavax-subq/detai... there is a [different?] shingles vaccine ZOSTAVAX available to older adults.

I assumed and thought the same as you, that once you got chicken pox then the vaccine for shingles is useless.

The link above states "This vaccine works by boosting the body's natural defense (immunity) against the zoster virus so that symptoms of shingles do not develop. It should not be used for treating active shingles, nerve pain caused by shingles, or for the prevention of chickenpox.

This vaccine should not be used in children."

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#124

Post by maxlybbert »

Vendan wrote: post #121
maxlybbert wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there's a detail that I'm not aware of, vaccination at, say, 18 should be as effective against shingles as vaccination at 4.

Shingles isn't a separate disease. If you had chicken pox, you have the shingles virus in you already. If you had the chicken pox vaccine before you got exposed to chicken pox, you don't. And the only shingles specific vaccine is only for ages 50+, which isn't terribly useful for people like me, who get it at age 27.

You're right. I wasn't thinking when I wrote the comment.

Still, the CDC's page for the chicken pox vaccine doesn't mention its effect on shingles ( http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/vaccination.html ), which suggests to me that avoiding shingles may be a great perk, it isn't the main reason behind requiring vaccination in school children.

With the caveats of believing Wikipedia, Wikipedia's page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine ) states both that being vaccinated reduces (but does not eliminate) the risk of shingles, and that vaccination of children raises the risk of shingles in unvaccinated adults slightly because the adults don't come into contact with the virus as often (near the end of the subsection on "Rates of immunity" and the second paragraph of the subsection "Rates of chickenpox").

Your case of shingles may, in fact, have been caused by widespread vaccination of children (I would expect that problem to disappear after a long transition; and, of course, it's impossible to say if your case was caused by this transition, but it's certain that some cases are).

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#125

Post by maxlybbert »

maxlybbert wrote: post #119
profsnuggles wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something about this comment is really bugging me and I'm not sure what it is. I think I'm in agreement that giving people unnecessary medical procedures is probably a bad idea. Maybe it's just because I don't understand why you hate the chicken pox vaccine. I took a quick look at the CDC page about it and the wikipedia entry. According to wikipedia before the vaccine was introduced in the US 10k people a year were a…

I'll admit that I don't make all of my decisions scientifically. I had chicken pox, all of my siblings and cousins had chicken pox, and I personally don't know anyone who had a bad enough case to be hospitalized. If 100 people die out of 10000 that are hospitalized, the danger of death from people who have an unusually bad infection is only 1%, meaning the risk for the general public is significantly less. But I'll a…

OK, here are the numbers from the CDC ( http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/vaccination.html ): 4 million cases annually, 10,600 (0.265%) required hospitalization, and 100 to 150 (0.0025% to 0.0037% of the 4 million cases) deaths.

Certainly going from 100-150 deaths a year to fewer than 10 is a significant improvement, and the 90-140 people who survive each year who wouldn't are grateful (or would be, if they knew what the alternative was). But we are talking about a very small risk.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#126

Post by Veratyr »

dustin999 wrote: post #103

Here's a great idea: move. Here's another great idea: homeschool. If everyone is forced to get vaccinations, then I also think we should ban wifi. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576848/I-used-sick-...

Allowing people to participate in schools without vaccinations causes proven harm. Being in the presence of a Wi-Fi network does not.

There's a pretty large difference.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#127

Post by fubarbaz »

The big issue with forced vaccination is overlooking toxic ingredients in the vaccines themselves, which big pharma has an incentive to use as adjuvants because they are cheap, cheap, cheap, and their lobbyists have granted them immunity from being sued. Stuff like mercury, aluminum, etc. Show us where the mercury free, aluminum free vaccines are and the issue goes away. Everything else is just politico-theater propaganda.

That and wtf's the use of flu shots if they give you last year's influenza strain which will do nothing for this year's?

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#128

Post by bronson »

pzxc wrote: post #70
stevenjohns wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being downvoted for two things: 1. Conflating things like circumcision and home schooling with vaccination. While there may be an argument for circumcision and against home schooling, it is a far cry from the arguments that support vaccination and the direct effect that vaccination has on the global - not just local - community. 2. The suggestion that religious freedoms extend beyond a single person. I…

Thanks for trying to explain, but I don't think you're right. I think the downvotes are a reflexive action for a lot of people. (I'm guilty of this, too. - Maybe we all should take a few more seconds before downvoting something we disagree with if it's meaningfully contributing to the discussion) Specifically, (1) I am comparing them, but I am not conflating them. I never said they were all the same thing, I just sai…

> You can't really declare nonvaccination to be indisputable evil without comparing the probabilities to actions and circumstances that may be just as harmful but which we allow.

Sure I can. That's just another version of the "we shouldn't go into space before we solve world hunger" argument.

Even though smog is a larger and more pernicious problem, we should still try to solve the smaller problems that come behind it.

(and, of course, I don't think anybody is saying nonvaccination is indisputable evil. I assume that's hyperbole)

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#129

Post by kybernetikos »

anathebealo wrote: post #26
pzxc wrote: post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

While I understand how most of the things you listed are covered under religious freedoms, I cannot comprehend how not vaccinating a child counts towards that. Not being vaccinated puts your child in direct danger of contracting a disease and further spreading it to others. First amendment rights are valid unless you are putting others in harm's way. I'm from New Hampshire and we are, by law, required to have vaccine…

> I've never understood why all states don't require this.

It makes perfect sense to me that people might be a little bit concerned about the precedent of allowing the state to mandate that they undergo a medical procedure.

It surprises me that people worry about freedom issues around being forced to have medical insurance, surely being compelled by law to be vaccinated is more worrying.

Bodily integrity is normally regarded as a fairly key right, and the idea that I should be held responsible for what the microorganisms in my body do later (which some in this discussion are arguing) seems pretty crazy to me.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#130

Post by DougN7 »

bequanna wrote: post #105
pzxc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you quantify it? How much harm is caused to herd immunity by 1 more child not getting vaccinated? What is the expected value of that -- the probability that the disease for which the vaccine is available actually occurs in such a way that the voluntarily-nonvaccinated person contracts it and then passes it on to someone who is involuntarily nonvaccinated? How does the expected value of that harm (probabili…

I understand what you're saying, and I get that you're playing devil's advocate here. I'm not saying 'screw vaccination deniers', I think we should have this conversation. My position is simply that your rights end where mine begin. This isn't like teaching alternatives to evolution in public school. If you don't want to believe in evolution, it irks me, but that doesn't really hurt me. People can die when others ref…

> My position is simply that your rights end where mine begin

What about where your rights might begin? I'm thinking of the dangers of alcohol, drugs, etc. where my use doesn't guarantee causing you trouble, but it definitely increases the likelyhood - much like not gettig vaccinated.

Post reply on HN