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“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

theguardian.com

131–136 of 136 posts

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#131
post #71
post #18

This bit is great: > We’re aware that we are not “having kids”, we’re “breeding”. We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

I don't understand how individuals can bring new, innocent life into this world... With an uncertain economic outlook, or without at least a stable financial base to care for them. #Edit: I'd honestly like to hear some comments/feedback about the individuals that disagree with what I said above.

Let me ask you this: how does a species survive that doesn't have offspring unless they were VERY comfortable and secure in their lives? It doesn't. There are many natural urges humans possess and this is one of them.

If you ask a person why they did it they often can't explain it in a reasonable way. To them it just feels like the correct decision, because evolution makes having offspring very desirable. Same reason why most of the things that taste delicious are the things you need most for survival (energy from food).

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Across a population this kind of 'bad luck' can have huge economic costs, and is a massive drag on innovation and productivity. It's not just about personal stories. Falcolas might not have been able to borrow $100, and would likely have ended up somewhere very different. And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer. You might think 'There are others' - and you'd be right. But the effects s…

'And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer.' Not only the startup economy. Brief thought experiment: Imagine two people. Person A is a car mechanic. Person B is a software developer. Neither are employed but both are more skilled and likely more efficient than each other in their respective fields. Despite the fact that A needs a website and B needs an oil change, A and B will likely end…

This is called "comparative advantage". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

This description of it by P.J. O'Rourke in "Eat the Rich" uses the respective talents of John Grisham and Courtney Love to explain it.

http://appliedabstractions.com/2004/11/30/ricardo-explained-...

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#133
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the poor that's a feature, not a bug. If you hate your life and you're not having it objectively terrible then it's your mind that's the problem. Objectively improving your life will do nothing. And defeatism may well be unreasonable, but who claimed otherwise? That it's bad is obvious, and stating it helps nobody. Even the author of the article knows it's bad and wrong but does it anyway.

I disagree. Taking right action and objectively improving your life will make you feel better. Actions affect emotion. Just like the action of smiling itself has been proven to make you happier, taking steps to make your life better will impact your feelings about it.

It only does this in certain cases. It can also negatively impact those who wouldn't want to do it. You have to factor in a cost to all of these things - even for something as simple as smiling. For smiling most of the cost is mental, but it's still there.

I feel like there's a lack of explanation on "effort" that a person can spend. Like why a person will be able to do some amount of work but then get incredibly bogged down and not feel like doing more, even though they aren't really "tired".

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#134
post #10
post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

I think a more charitable interpretation of the author statements are that she has an overwhelming feeling that she will never not be poor, and that feeling causes her to make poor decisions, rather than believing that it is an inevitability in an intellectual sense. As the author suggests to, in the quote provided by chaostheory, this is akin to, or perhaps actually is, depression. That knowledge that this "feeling"…

Considering how many people in the world are poor, wouldn't you say that such "defeatist" thoughts are actually more realistic?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#135
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it doesn't mean they _can't be_ either. Which is my whole damn point: naturalness is irrelevant. >Not everything in life is under our control. Who cares!? Are you going to spend your time repeating trivially useless facts? You have said nothing at all that allows you to distinguish between what can and can't be controlled. 'Naturalness' isn't it, for what should be obvious reasons. You do not know what is und…

> Which is my whole damn point: naturalness is irrelevant. I disagree. Man-made phenomena can all be fought and reversed (so it's worth trying), but not all natural ones can (so it can be worth trying to fight them, but one must also know when to give up). This started with the statement "Social inequality without serving a conscious purpose", which implies (or at least that's how I interpreted it) that social inequa…

I'd like to add that in a state of nature, man is in a state of injustice. Social justice is by definition a byproduct of conscious thinking against a natural state of disrepair.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a roach-infested, food stamp family. My dad was a janitor. Mom didn't work; she has (undiagnosed) mental issues. Home experience was filth and cigarette smoke. We had no car. Sent home dozens of times for head lice while in school. Today I'm a developer and am upper middle-class, some years making what my dad made in 10-15 years. That said, I still fight feelings of being poor. It's a mindset, not a bank…

That said, I still fight feelings of being poor. It's a mindset, not a bank account balance. This is very true. Even though I have money these days, I still own very little. I just don't recognize the need to own anything valuable, have no desire to own property, nor feel the need to eat at a fine restaurant. Even though I can afford Starbucks with no problems, I still feel like it is an "expensive" place. The last t…

What's sad is, money is not the root of all evil, and it never has been [1]. I know you realize this, but it's worth repeating all the same.

Money is a-moral. It has no implicit moral value, regardless of quantity. It's just a tool. When you put it into the hands of a person, then it takes on a kind of life.

Think about bricks. Let's say you have a brick. You can throw it through a window, perhaps to scare / hurt / burglarize someone. You can also build a shelter for domestic violence victims. The brick couldn't care less - it's just a brick. What matters is when it's put into the hands of a human, and what that person does with it.

As a tool, money simply magnifies what you already are. If you're a greedy, selfish jerk, and you get a bunch of money, you're going to be a colossal greedy, selfish jerk, and the world will be worse for it. The world has plenty of such people. If you're humble, caring, and generous, and you get a bunch of money, you're going to be what people call a philanthropist, and the world will be better for it. The world also has plenty of these people. In both cases, the money is immaterial, and what's good / evil is the actions taken by the person using the money.

There are plenty of greedy people without money, and with. There are plenty of generous people with money, and without. Money isn't the dominant factor in how people behave; it only brings out more of what's already in their nature.

As an aside, the same is true for all tools. Computers, guns, hammers, and cars can be used for good or bad purposes [2]; it's the person wielding them which makes the difference.

As to what you do with money? Well of course, you have to take care of your own basic needs. There's nothing wrong with that. Afterward? If you want to make the world a better place, then money makes you more empowered to do so. It might mean paying someone's utility bill or letting them stay with you while they get back on their feet. It might mean investing in the local homeless shelter, or volunteering your time at a soup kitchen. It's up to you. With creativity, there's no end to the ways you can help the world ... but you can only do so if you have the ability to help, and having money can absolutely be part of that.

There are definitely some toxic notions in our culture about money ... that someone with it must be "bad" whereas someone without it must be "good" ... but it's just not true. It's catchy, and with a little envy it's easy to believe it and then rationalize taking rich people's money "just because" (even moreso if you're led to believe some of that is going to come your direction).

Still doesn't make it true. You wouldn't see someone with a bunch of bricks and assume something about their character, and you wouldn't see someone with no bricks and make assumptions about theirs, either. It's all just tools ... it's the person (their heart, their character, their actions) which lead to good or evil.

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[1] for the record, the phrase "money is the root of all evil" is a fudge of an old English, King-James-Bible translation which states "for the love of money is at the root of all kinds of evil". In other words, greed leads to evil. For ideological reasons the phrase has been adjusted and misappropriated into the incorrect one - "money is the root of all evil" - we hear these days, but that doesn't make it true.

[2] that's right everybody, I said it. Guns do not kill people, any more than cars cause wrecks, keyboards make software bugs, pencils make wrong answers, or forks make people obese. Now cue the usual reactions ...

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