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The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

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Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#41

Post by semperfaux »

kbart wrote: post #38

"People who consider themselves hikikomori exhibit a wide range of symptoms, including depressive, autistic and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. A minority appear addicted to the Internet " That's strange, I always thought Internet was the main cause of this problem. I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight.

That's definitely not hikikomori. The real thing basically never leaves its room, with family providing food. Even a less extreme example almost certainly would never leave the home for long enough to die anywhere else.

They do often spend a lot of time on the internet, but it's not a cause, it's a related fixation (when you're trapped -- by what's probably some combination of your own preference and perceived outside forces -- in a room, the internet provides a wealth of things to do). It's a social malaise that might as well be an extension of the NEET phenomenon.

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#42

Post by jalcazar »

The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon.

I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori.

“In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#44

Post by semperfaux »

jkot wrote: post #22

So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale. Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following ca…

Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives.

You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it.

But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#45

Post by mkal_tsr »

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #28
jhou2 wrote: post #13

I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the parents pass away, which may take some t…

I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.

> I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.

It's amazing how you're acutely aware to how every introvert feels about this, when did you manage to contact them all and convince them to respond to such a question? Otherwise, how can you make such an absolute assertion?

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#46

Post by Red_Tarsius »

mkal_tsr wrote: post #45
Red_Tarsius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.

> I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour. It's amazing how you're acutely aware to how every introvert feels about this, when did you manage to contact them all and convince them to respond to such a question? Otherwise, how can you make such an absolute assertion?

You missed the "I think" part. I was genuinely sharing my assumptions and experiences. OF COURSE I can't speak for all introverts I don't know, but your post is forcing me to highlight such obviousness.

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#47

Post by gowan »

yrlson wrote: post #20
bane wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm married into a South Korean family, and from my observation Korean society has less intense version of Japan's social collective mood (IIR it's written as '情' in both countries) It's really difficult to read about this kind of thing and maintain an appropriate feeling of cultural relativism without wanting go "oh Japan" or in my case "oh Korea". There's been many times with my family and friends a seemingly intra…

Hikikomori are also well "networked" online and play the game of who is authentic and who is fake. Perhaps it is as popular as it is because it has become an identity.

And that identity would be otaku?

Welcome to the N.H.K. is an anime that explores Hikikomori.

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#48

Post by Aeolun »

jalcazar wrote: post #42

The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon. I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori. “In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”

What is your alternative then? Push them and if they don't respond throw them out onto the street?

Once your children understand that you won't actually throw them out, any conversation pushing them is just negatively reinforcing their impression that interaction is a problem, not a solution.

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#49

Post by Padding »

jhou2 wrote: post #13

I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the parents pass away, which may take some t…

> Of course there are macro-economic arguments against it

If there were, wouldn't the market eventually take care of it?

Re: The Fight to Save Japan’s Young Shut-Ins

#50

Post by Morgawr »

semperfaux wrote: post #44
jkot wrote: post #22

So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale. Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following ca…

Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives. You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that J…

>to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.

I don't completely agree with the post you're replying to, however this part is not so far fetched to believe. It doesn't matter much how often these people go outside, the Japanese media and culture is vastly focused on Anime (at least for these shut-in people, which are one of their target audience) and there has been a constant cross-pollination between the western and eastern cultures. A lot of people are living a more western 'make-believe' culture in Japan that easily goes against their traditional set of moral values. The Japanese world is changing and we're still seeing this major cultural shift, which very well might be the cause of this, or at least a catalyst.

As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Obviously this is all my hypothesis, it might very well be unfound.

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