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Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

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Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#71

Post by jtheory »

saddington wrote: post #67
jtheory wrote: post #66

This section confused me -- can anyone explain? > I was so unprepared for this deluge that it stunted what was already going to be a banner month as I simply did not have enough review copies and tokens to go around . I ended up having to wait-list over 30 prominent blogs which hurt my momentum severely. He's selling software , right? It sounds here like he hit problems that simply shouldn't exist for a digital produ…

I'm given 100 "tokens" or "review copies" to give away for free per every single release via the MAS. Essentially, I ran out and couldn't give free copies for review for big name blogs and news sites and thus lost a lot of opportunities for free press.

Congratulations, first -- that's a good thing to run out of!

But it's a bit infuriating that the problem seems to be completely fake; that is, of course Apple has no limitations to how many review copies and/or tokens they can generate; they could trivially give you a button to request more.

In cases like yours, that would have been the more profitable choice for them... but they're operating at immense scale, which generally means removing choice as much as possible -- and there must be some loophole they're closing (though I admit I don't see it yet). They can't pay someone to check every possibly dodgy request for more copies/tokens, and so they can't check any.

/rant -- this is certainly a tangent to the article! I just found it startling. I've sold my own software and online subscriptions for more than a decade (though nothing ever likely to become big) and naturally if I feel like giving away copies, they're mine to give.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#72

Post by saddington »

jtheory wrote: post #71
saddington wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm given 100 "tokens" or "review copies" to give away for free per every single release via the MAS. Essentially, I ran out and couldn't give free copies for review for big name blogs and news sites and thus lost a lot of opportunities for free press.

Congratulations, first -- that's a good thing to run out of! But it's a bit infuriating that the problem seems to be completely fake; that is, of course Apple has no limitations to how many review copies and/or tokens they can generate; they could trivially give you a button to request more. In cases like yours, that would have been the more profitable choice for them... but they're operating at immense scale, which…

Hah. During the moment, when I realized the massive influx and that I was "out" of tokens, it was incredibly disheartening... one of those moments where the floor seems to disappear type of things.

it's just the "price" one pays for being part of this ecosystem i suppose. very thankful for it in general, but, there is always room for improvement.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#73

Post by saddington »

sliverstorm wrote: post #69
saddington wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm given 100 "tokens" or "review copies" to give away for free per every single release via the MAS. Essentially, I ran out and couldn't give free copies for review for big name blogs and news sites and thus lost a lot of opportunities for free press.

Could you have simply wired them $29 to buy the app? Or would that be seen as dishonest.

it could be interpreted as dishonest in a number of ways... since the blog post and/or review would no longer be an unbiased review... but rather there was now a financial transaction and thus introducing motive for a more positive review.

it now is a "sponsored" blog post instead of an impartial review.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#74

Post by saddington »

jsankey wrote: post #70
jonstokes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, I understand how hard it is. I've been working alone on a project for the past 2.5 years now (not quite ready for prime-time, but soon), so I know exactly what you mean. However, two things are just inexcusable to me: 1) this is a writing app /with no support for paragraph breaks/. That is unbelievable to me. Nobody who writes for a living can use an app that shows all of your text to you as a really larg…

$30 is most certainly not "a lot of money", and it is this attitude that makes indie development so hard these days. This app is meant for serious bloggers (i.e. those that spend many hours writing each week), so if it works for them $30 is a steal. Remember that out of the $30 John gets just $20 from Apple, and if you take another third out for other expenses you're looking at less than $14. Needless to say you need…

this paper-napkin math isn't entirely off-course... and my time as a developer would make much more fiscal sense if i went and did contract work... hell, i did this for a long time and made a ton of money in comparison to my "take" as an indie developer via the MAS.

But, that wasn't the point and wasn't the motive... so, i am okay with "eating" those costs so that i might be more "in control" of this product's destiny.

appreciate the support... this is what makes "indie development" worth it.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#75

Post by username223 »

jonas21 wrote: post #10
cmyr wrote: post #5

Really interesting to see these numbers. I've been reading DF for years and years, and its is the only advertising model I've encountered that doesn't grate. His advertising is considerate, audience appropriate, and vetted. I feel good supporting his advertisers, because I feel good supporting him, and because they're just consistently things I'm happy to hear about. I would really love to see more independent journa…

I'd rather not. It introduces a pretty big conflict of interest (for example, Gruber would probably think twice before writing something negative about a former sponsor when he's on the record endorsing them) and blurs the line between advertising and editorial content. As mentioned in the article: > the cost today ranges between $8,000 – $10,000 dollars per placement and you get to write your own post, essentially M…

For better and worse, it's the way things are going in the near future. People like Gruber and Alex Blumberg (Gimlet Media podcasts) have built up credibility, and are open about what is paid versus editorial, so the "native ads" are merely annoying rather than trust-destroying. Unfortunately, lots of people with a few page-views and more greed than sense will also try to get in on the action, and the web will be an even worse place.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#76

Post by saddington »

puranjay wrote: post #56
jonstokes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno dude, I bought it, tried to use it, and quickly discovered that it's a pretty poor product. I won't go into it here, because it's off-topic and I left a two-star review in the App Store anyway. But my impression of the app is that its success is mainly due to marketing savvy and the current infatuation with "minimalist" writing apps that use Markdown. So I would say yes, DF advertising clearly worked here, an…

As a writer, I like the idea of a minimalist writing app. I really do. It feels natural. Just you and a blank screen so you can tap away and kill whatever demons are haunting you. Except there is a problem: serious writers need more than 'minimalism'. All the authors and novelists and long-form fiction writers I know have reams upon reams of notes, plot information, and character data cluttering up their MS Word (arg…

i've been really "nice" about every single comment here on HN... but i can't help but let you know that this comment is single-handedly the most pompous one of all.

"substantial writing"...? really? "serious" writers?

I could list 10,000 pieces of GLORIOUS work that was crafted on nothing more than "pen" and "paper" ... or perhaps just "paper" and "ink" and "typewriter"...

PEN + PAPER == Maximally-minimal "app"...

and in that way, with Desk, I was attempting to create an homage, of sorts, to the "old way" of creating great writing work.

keeping it simple, effective, useful.

minimalist apps are for the serious and the playful, for those that are writing epic novels (one user of Desk is a multi-New York Times winning author) and those that are, as you say, "pretending" to write (like my 8-year old daughter, perhaps: http://john.do/gift-writing/).

but, it all, at the end of the day, is still writing...

"There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed." ~~~ Ernest Hemingway

http://john.do/writer/

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#77

Post by chipotle_coyote »

cmyr wrote: post #43
jonas21 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather not. It introduces a pretty big conflict of interest (for example, Gruber would probably think twice before writing something negative about a former sponsor when he's on the record endorsing them) and blurs the line between advertising and editorial content. As mentioned in the article: > the cost today ranges between $8,000 – $10,000 dollars per placement and you get to write your own post, essentially M…

John has been sponsored by Google(1) and by Microsoft(2) both of which he has written some decidedly negative things about. I think he takes conflict of interest seriously, and has a strong division between his editorial and his advertising content. 1: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/08/10/ios-at-google 2: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/04/20/windows-azure-mo...

I don't think it's as much of a "firewall" in the sense traditional news media (theoretically) tries to maintain as much as a fairly natural separation between the kinds of companies advertising with him and the kinds of topics he writes about. In practice, the chances are fairly small that he's going to have a reason to write negative things about Squarespace, let alone Desk, assuming he's done basic vetting of the product/service.

The failure mode for this theory, of course, is if one of the companies -- especially a service like Squarespace -- either shifts their business model to something slimy or is revealed to have been doing something slimy all along. Personally, I don't think Gruber would hesitate to both report on that and stop taking their ads -- doing so would have little to no effect on his bottom line.

(The observation made by another commenter about how many bloggers and, of course, podcasters pump Squarespace without actually using Squarespace is wryly amusing, though.)

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#78

Post by pnathan »

wlesieutre wrote: post #7

A previous amusing note from Gruber[1] on his sponsorship system and a sales email from Taboola, purveyor of the obnoxious click-bait grids that you're starting to see all over: > Speaking of revenue and pageviews, true story: I got an email yesterday from a sales rep at Taboola, pitching me on running their ads on DF. It included this line: “I see your site is not monetized at present, and I think there is room to d…

Ah, I'd been noticing more and more Taboola ads on my mobile phone, but I hadn't chased down the source. I suppose I should find some ad-blocks for the phone.

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#79

Post by cmyr »

Kylekramer wrote: post #61
alexqgb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but what you're implying is that these companies have sub-par products that unscrupulous writers have been willing to treat as well-made in exchange for cash payment. As someone who (very happily) uses both Backblaze and Squarespace I can safely say this is not the case, and that they're not just "buying their way into" bloggers' good graces. I'm pretty sure that if they're in anyone else's good graces, it…

No, I don't think they are sub par. But I do think their exalted place in the Apple blog world is not earned by quality, but ad money. You don't see many of these bloggers actively using Squaresquare for anything but side projects, but they all push it as the go to platform to use even outside of ads. I would also contend that you can certainly buy your way in. See ads for stuff like Clean My Mac, which I am positive…

This is actually a great example of something I wanted to dig up earlier, which is a DF sponsor that john clearly doesn't give a shit about. The tone of the 'thank you note' for that can be generously described as "professional". You can _almost_ hear him gritting his teeth.

[1] http://daringfireball.net/feeds/sponsors/2014/01/cleanmymac_...

[2] http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/03/22/cleanmymac

Re: Does Sponsoring Daring Fireball Work?

#80

Post by allending »

jonstokes wrote: post #24
saddington wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always get a refund for the app... and I'm really sorry it didn't work for you. It's honestly really tough being an indie developer... I have to do EVERYTHING related to not just building the DAMN THING but all of the business, marketing, Q/A, financials/accounting, blogging... the list is eternally-long. v1.0 was lucky... in a lot of ways. v1.1 addressed a shit-ton of issues... v1.2, out in a week (hopefully…

Believe me, I understand how hard it is. I've been working alone on a project for the past 2.5 years now (not quite ready for prime-time, but soon), so I know exactly what you mean. However, two things are just inexcusable to me: 1) this is a writing app /with no support for paragraph breaks/. That is unbelievable to me. Nobody who writes for a living can use an app that shows all of your text to you as a really larg…

> 1) this is a writing app /with no support for paragraph breaks/. That is unbelievable to me. Nobody who writes for a living can use an app that shows all of your text to you as a really large single block with no horizontal breaks between paragraphs. How? Why? Not only am I stupified by this, but I also am dumbfounded at all of these 5-star reviews that don't mention it or any of the other show-stoppper flaws I pointed out within the first 20 mins of use. Are people reviewing an app that they've not actually used?

Possibly, but then that would be a bunch of people with a lot of money :)

> 2) The price. $30 is a lot of money, and yeah you can try to convince Apple's customer support to give you a refund, but we both know nobody does that.

Is $30 really that much if it delivers value? Desk is meant to make blogging simple. It's definitely hard to argue if you buy the app, hate it, and don't use it. At that level, a price point of $5 or $10 would still be much more expensive than what you got from it.

But for people who actually use the product, how long will it be before they extract the $30 of value (ok, this is a simplified view, there is non trivial effort for learning the product.) from the product to have made it a good investment? Whether it is time saved, or increased quality of output, I'd argue not much time at all.

Another thing to note is that the article points out that the number of returns for Desk is small but non trivial (~2.6% of revenue), so people do in fact do that. This is consistent with my own experiences (about 4%).

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