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“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

theguardian.com

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Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#31

Post by sametmax »

mercer wrote: post #28
sametmax wrote: post #23

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not eve…

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based i…

In theory yes, in practice, if you observe around you, people in debt are (very) often the ones with early children, loans, 200$ phone bills and more.

I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better.

And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years.

And no, a car is not mandatory. If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. If you don't, you are making the explicit choice to spend more money for the luxury of staying here.

And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress.

Of course, you can always find extrems cases, like somebody raised in a very religious family, forced to keep a baby, or somebody with a love one to care in an hospital. But it's rare. I lived in Europe, Africa, travelled to Asia, America south and north. In the US or the West Europe, most people ARE, in fact, responsible for their debts.

I'm not talking about people in the street. These are a very different situation. I'm talking about this everyday poverty, that of course nobody choose to be in voluntarly, but are the results of life priorities directly imported from TV, magazins and supermarkets.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#32

Post by lifeisstillgood »

Slightly tangential but the image of hundreds of people flocking to a free dentistry service in a giant hall not merely horrified me (look, you are American, you should realise that the rest of the rich world looks at you the same way guests at a cocktail party would look at a merchant banker who just arrived having not changed his clothes or bathed in six months)

Anyway - horrible image. But it does strike me as the likely way forward for providing affordable health care. I suspect that many of the inefficiencies in our delivery of healthcare are around throughputs at diagnosis (hard to fix) at preperTion and delivery of the non drug intervention.

In other words, stop persuading people to go individually for flu jabs, just tell everyone there will be a fair outside Sainsburys.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#33

Post by dchest »

twisties wrote: post #22
falcolas wrote: post #17

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

This is a loaded question. Where is injustice?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#34

Post by swatow »

twisties wrote: post #25
swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

Few things are impossible. Give the author some credit. I think if your takeaway is that the author is claiming mobility is impossible, you've missed the point entirely. The author is explaining to you the self-perpetuating cycle and psychology that keeps poor people poor, despite what they feel are their best efforts. As a person who has struggled with poverty for decades, I find your underlying dismissal of the art…

Are you also offended by the replies to my comment by rayiner and monk_e_boy?

They are basically agreeing with my interpretation of the statement (although they think that the statement, interpreted this way, is true).

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#35

Post by paganel »

> Or what if, God forbid, the car breaks down or you break a bone?

I'm not going to add anything meaningful about "breaking a bone" and universal healthcare, but when it comes to a car breaking down there's something to be said about how the American car-culture and its suburban-centered development is actively at work against America's poor people.

Not sure how that can be remedied in the short- to medium-term, but something needs to change about how urban planning is done.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#36

Post by Riseed »

sametmax wrote: post #23

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not eve…

I do not understand the sentiment that poor people shouldn't have cell phones.

Please tell me, how does one get a job in the US without a phone? And when one's job means being called in on short notice, how does one keep said job without having a phone?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#37

Post by shaftoe »

swatow wrote: post #20
monk_e_boy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food. Or spend the money today on some burgers and a DVD for the kids. Get hugs and kisses and a full belly. Poor people aren't stupid. You seem to think they are. She may go to sc…

>What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food. That is ridiculous. If you hadn't saved and you had the car crash, then you would have been carless. Instead you were able to use to car >Poor people aren't stupid. You seem…

I'm amused that your comment is getting voted down, ostensibly by people who don't agree.

I'll go much farther than you did and say defeatism is for losers. I don't mean that as a judgement, but as a statement of fact. You'll never get ahead when you don't see a point. Life is mostly a mental game.

A serious problem for a lot of people (beyond the poor) is that they spend far more cognitive time thinking about how to justify and feel good about their circumstances and decisions than how to improve them. Change comes from within and change is hard.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#38

Post by sametmax »

Riseed wrote: post #36
sametmax wrote: post #23

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not eve…

I do not understand the sentiment that poor people shouldn't have cell phones. Please tell me, how does one get a job in the US without a phone? And when one's job means being called in on short notice, how does one keep said job without having a phone?

You use your friends phone. Friends are supposed to help your. Of course, if you get a job needing a phone, you take one. But again, I never had one job requiring a phone. You can tell an employer "i'm broke, i can't afford a phone right now". People are human.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#39

Post by gargarplex »

dchest wrote: post #33
twisties wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

This is a loaded question. Where is injustice?

Social inequality without serving a conscious purpose

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#40

Post by morgante »

joelhooks wrote: post #16

When our first son was born 17 years ago I was making $10/h. My wife got WIC, and used medicaid. We told the government that she lived with her mom and that I was a deadbeat. We needed the help, and my low-wage job would have been prohibitive. $10/h actually wasn't too bad in '98 for a single dude. I had an apartment, ate, had utilities paid, with enough left over for beer, weed and cigarettes. It was rough, but defi…

> I had an apartment, ate, had utilities paid, with enough left over for beer, weed and cigarettes.

That actually sounds pretty great. You covered your necessities and had a few luxuries. Heck, I make an order of magnitude more than minimum wage, but my life doesn't sound much more glamorous than that.

If poor people are able to afford food, housing, and small luxuries (cigarettes), is life really so bad?

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