I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure • Hacker News Board

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#111

Post by bambax » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #60

hownottowrite wrote: post #45

Summary of Agreement (not judgement): 1. Plaintiff received $25K (directed to ACLU legal and subject to tax) 2. Philadelphia PD must communicate the following for a period of months: "Investigative detentions may be made only on reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct and any arrest must be based on probable cause. A referral by TSA agents is not grounds for arrest unless an officer makes a judgment ofprobable cause…

Other notable facts: recent travel to middle east, flash cards included words like "terrorist", "explosion", "bomb", "to kidnap", etc., didn't follow basic screening process guaranteeing an elevated inspection (left large electronics in bag), had the cards in his pocket and handed directly to the TSA agent. As soon as someone arrived who had the necessary pay-grade to release this guy, he was released. Sorry for miss…

> I do expect TSA to flag me if I literally hand the agent a stack of cards with "bomb" and "terrorist" written on them

Really? What else should you have not written on cards when trying to learn a foreign language? Insults? Names of body parts? Names of crimes?

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#112

Post by yourad_io » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #99

yourad_io wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least 10 were bizarre words that would get you arrested if you handed to a bank teller. Come on. Half of these are basic vocabulary and the other half are contextually relevant. Grab a random newspaper; you'll likely find 90% of them somewhere.

"Contextually relevant!" That's a good one. :-) I took several years of [French] foreign language, never did I ever learn those vocab words. What a world we live in. "Ou est les toilettes?" "Un pain au chocolat et un cafe s'il vous plait." ... "Est-ce une bombe dans votre sac à dos?" It's a fantastic Onion-worthy title, but IMO Nick was inconvenienced for his lack of critical thinking skills on this one. By compariso…

> "Contextually relevant!" That's a good one. :-)

It's true on a global scale, not just in the Arabic context. As you immerse yourself in a language, you're encouraged to follow newspapers/articles/tv/shows/etc. It is entirely unreasonable to censor your own learning process. Take this unfortunately common headline:

    Death toll of Yemen anti-Houthi bomb blast rises to 49.[1]

Now censor your knowledge:

    [? ?] of Yemen anti-Houthi [? ?] rises to 49.

Also, aren't we overlooking the fact that the TSA isn't the NSA/DHS? Did they guy have any things that could endanger the flight and his fellow passengers? Indisputably NOT. How is arresting him because of "suspicious literature" (a) acceptable and (b) within their jurisdiction? Report him to the NSA/DHS as an Arabic learner, if you like, and have them add it to his file, but arresting him? Isn't their job to make sure that he isn't sneaking [explodey things] onto airplanes?

To make a broader point: this is exactly what Schneier means by "security theater". If someone is a genuine threat, you can bet your ass he won't be carrying "suspicious" flashcards in airports. As they'd need to avoid suspicion/detention at all costs, every piece of their luggage/carryon would be scrutinized before they even got to the airport.

This hostility and pre-emptive guilt serves nothing except for ticking boxes in procedure reports and power trips.

> What a world we live in.

You can say that again.

[1] http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/01/01/...

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#113

Post by jpindar » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #28

This is horrible, and the abuses of police and security personal in the US are egregious. In addition, US foreign policy as of late (late being the the last 150 years or so) is also pretty lame. That said, I often suspect there is more to stories like this than is being told. More than the book and flashcards. A suspicious look. Furtive eye movement in the TSA line. A "look" that might be interpreted as capable of vi…

"He did not know how long she had been looking at him, but perhaps for as much as five minutes, and it was possible that his features had not been perfectly under control. It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself--anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face (to look incredulous when a victory was announced, for example) was itself a punishable offence. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: FACECRIME, it was called."

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#114

Post by lotsofmangos » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #70

yourad_io wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any source for these notable facts? > It never occurred to Nick to put the cards away before going through security screening? Oblivious beyond belief. Obnoxious beyond belief. You're saying "he should know better and hide the perfectly legal thing that he was doing". In the same line of thought, if you're learning Arabic online without going through Tor, you're asking for it. Right? EDIT: Found the source[1]. The fu…

Well, at least I think it's relevant to understand the full context of what happened. Remember, TSA's job is to spot outliers, oddities, and flag them for review. I have zero love for TSA, but I think they did their job here. There were 80 cards total. At least 10 were bizarre words that would get you arrested if you handed to a bank teller. Guilty of not censoring? No you missed my point entirely. I am suggesting th…

There were 80 cards total. At least 10 were bizarre words that would get you arrested if you handed to a bank teller.

Lucky he hadn't handed them a dictionary then. That has all the bad words.

By the way, given you seem to agree with the TSA that it is suspicious for a traveler to be learning certain words, how would you plan on reading the news in a foreign language without learning words like bomb and kidnap?

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#115

Post by jMyles » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:55 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #60

hownottowrite wrote: post #45

Summary of Agreement (not judgement): 1. Plaintiff received $25K (directed to ACLU legal and subject to tax) 2. Philadelphia PD must communicate the following for a period of months: "Investigative detentions may be made only on reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct and any arrest must be based on probable cause. A referral by TSA agents is not grounds for arrest unless an officer makes a judgment ofprobable cause…

Other notable facts: recent travel to middle east, flash cards included words like "terrorist", "explosion", "bomb", "to kidnap", etc., didn't follow basic screening process guaranteeing an elevated inspection (left large electronics in bag), had the cards in his pocket and handed directly to the TSA agent. As soon as someone arrived who had the necessary pay-grade to release this guy, he was released. Sorry for miss…

> someone arrived who had the necessary pay-grade to release this guy

This is odious civic discourse on its face.

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#116

Post by jkot » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:56 PM UTC

thanksgiving wrote: post #101

jkot wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway has way too many similar cases, for such small country of only 5 million people. Barnevernet also puts artificial obstructions for adoption by biological relatives, such as grandparents. As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik.

> As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik. Hang on a minute. Here in the US, my tax dollars support your children. WIC and Food Stamps and school lunch programs which come from my tax dollars ensure your infants and children do not starve in case something happens to you or your income. As a parent, you get to claim tax deductions which means more money out of my pocket to cover f…

??? I dont follow.

Parents have right for due process, right to raise their own children and so on. Children also have some rights, those might colide wiuth rights of parents in some cases.

Problem is that in Norway parents have ZERO rights. Norway have not signed relevant EU treaties for Child Protection. Once children is taken by social servies, there is were little chance for return. SS than bullies parents, forces them to divorce, not even allowed to seek help.

To put it in US context: Imagine Alabama would start abducting children of people who just moved in, because their parenting is not religous enough. All perfectly legal with zero chance to get children back (or sometimes even see them ever again).

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#117

Post by MichaelGG » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:00 PM UTC

ecdavis wrote: post #95

yabatopia wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you know who did 9/11? Osama Bin Laden! And did you know that Osama Bin Laden had shoes? So you see why your shoes are suspicious and we have to arrest you?"

"It is cheap, basic and widely available around the world. Yet the Casio F-91W digital watch was declared to be "the sign of al-Qaida" and a contributing factor to continued detention of prisoners by the analysts stationed at Guantánamo Bay. Briefing documents used to train staff in assessing the threat level of new detainees advise that possession of the F-91W – available online for as little as £4 – suggests the we…

Available on Amazon for ten bucks:

http://www.amazon.com/Casio-F91W-Digital-Sports-Watch/dp/B00...

Looks nice enough for what it is and the price.

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#118

Post by jMyles » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:00 PM UTC

kghose wrote: post #77

zaroth wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other notable facts: recent travel to middle east, flash cards included words like "terrorist", "explosion", "bomb", "to kidnap", etc., didn't follow basic screening process guaranteeing an elevated inspection (left large electronics in bag), had the cards in his pocket and handed directly to the TSA agent. As soon as someone arrived who had the necessary pay-grade to release this guy, he was released. Sorry for miss…

Finally, some one with additional details I was waiting to hear. If they hauled everyone learning Arabic off the false positive rate should be sky high. I wonder, just wonder, if this person was an "activist". You know, someone who tries to go positive on sufficient features of the detector to pass the threshold.

> if this person was an "activist". You know, someone who tries to go positive on sufficient features of the detector to pass the threshold.

This is a perfectly reasonable smoke test for civil liberties and there's no shame, crime, or dishonor in running it.

For those wondering more about this type of action, I suggest a study of the works of Ben Masel of Madison, Wisconsin, who passed away a few years ago. He was arguably a master.

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#119

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:02 PM UTC

afiedler wrote: post #89

pmorici wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a lame outcome. If there is no admission or finding of wrong doing it really feels like there was no accountability whatsoever. The $25k is a rounding error and looks more like a token payment than anything else. They don't even have to make that paragraph part of their permanent police training. edit: How did they manage to drag this out for 5 years and still not have an actual judge or jury rule on this.

(Disclaimer: IANAL) Reading through the history of the case[1], it looks like the District Court ruled that the Federal TSA officers involved were entitled to qualified immunity under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The reasoning was that the TSA followed appropriated procedures and wasn't responsible for the longer (few hour) detention by the Philly Police. In my opinion, that seems reasonable. The TSA only detained hi…

...the TSA... wasn't responsible for the longer (few hour) detention by the Philly Police.

This rings true to me. The TSA in general does not want people in custody. They know themselves that most of what they do is bullshit, so what would be the point? When I was delayed by TSA, they were eager to turn me over to LVPD, who, after a short conversation about the best way to deal with TSA bureaucracy and escape with minimal fines, told me, "if you run you can still catch your plane". Which I did.

Author of TFA had the misfortune to deal with local police just as stupid as TSA, but without the built-in CYA aversion to arrests.

Re: I Was Arrested for Learning a Foreign Language. Today, I Have Some Closure

#120

Post by zaroth » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:06 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #114

zaroth wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at least I think it's relevant to understand the full context of what happened. Remember, TSA's job is to spot outliers, oddities, and flag them for review. I have zero love for TSA, but I think they did their job here. There were 80 cards total. At least 10 were bizarre words that would get you arrested if you handed to a bank teller. Guilty of not censoring? No you missed my point entirely. I am suggesting th…

There were 80 cards total. At least 10 were bizarre words that would get you arrested if you handed to a bank teller. Lucky he hadn't handed them a dictionary then. That has all the bad words. By the way, given you seem to agree with the TSA that it is suspicious for a traveler to be learning certain words, how would you plan on reading the news in a foreign language without learning words like bomb and kidnap?

What I actually think is that the blog post left out some key details and slightly altered the "money quote" to make the story appear much more ridiculous than it really was. In reality after considering the totality of the evidence, this was a bizarre case which is way above the pay grade of the average TSA agent. They perform the smell test and this one reasonably doesn't pass.

To the point of another poster re "security theater" terrorists don't come with name cards. TSA is not supposed to just check you're not carrying any liquids. The agents need to be able to question people who trigger that gut feeling. The questioning should be professional, respectful, but curt and effective.

A guy going through airport security, recently in the middle east, not familiar with key aspects airport protocol (take out electronics, empty pockets), carrying cards with those words. Yeah, talk to him for a few minutes. I'd rather that than spending their time patting down kids and grannies.

Ideally get him through the full eval without even missing the flight. Don't handcuff a non-violent suspect, etc. The process here was imperfect but simply not as insane as the blog post made it out to be.