“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#21

Post by mrow84 » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

swatow wrote: post #14

mrow84 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more charitable interpretation of the author statements are that she has an overwhelming feeling that she will never not be poor, and that feeling causes her to make poor decisions, rather than believing that it is an inevitability in an intellectual sense. As the author suggests to, in the quote provided by chaostheory, this is akin to, or perhaps actually is, depression. That knowledge that this "feeling"…

Going with what your interpretation, I would consider wording it like that to be obfuscation by the author. The author is clearly arguing from a left wing viewpoint, and wants to emphasize lack of social mobility. Fine, but then the author is using an exaggerated and wrong feeling to emphasize this point, even though reality might not be that bad. Like you say, if people do feel like this then it's important to under…

It is worth bearing in mind that this was, as noted at the start of the guardian piece, originally written as a reply on a forum. I don't think it is best to interpret what the author has written as a political argument about the objective "external" nature of reality, but rather as a personal, subjective statement of her own experience. I think if you reread it in that light then it'll probably seem much more reasonable.

> Fine, but then the author is using an exaggerated and wrong feeling to emphasize this point, even though reality might not be that bad.

To me, this statement is synonymous with the "telling people to "just get on with things"" that I was suggesting was not very helpful in my previous post. The key issue is that the things that compound her already difficult situation are not things that are easily quantified like the money in her bank account, but more intangible things like how she feels every day. These things are difficult to measure and so easy to dismiss, but that doesn't make them less significant for the people who experience them.

edit: removed a word

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#22

Post by twisties » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:38 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #17

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#23

Post by sametmax » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:40 PM UTC

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not even normal to have electricity and water : these are the luxury of 20 % of the world. So stop spending in things you don't need before you can afford them, then complain.

A car is a luxury. You got bikes, public transport, legs...

Cell phone is a luxury. Yes, even when you are looking for a job. Unless you can find a phone bill costing 2$/month, which I do.

Kids are a luxury. Not a right. Not a must have. Something you do when you can give them a decent living. Or you don't make them.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#24

Post by gyardley » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:43 PM UTC

Sounds like there's not much point in helping the poor, then, because they're just going to cock it up.

I disagree - I think poor people are indeed capable of making good decisions and planning long-term - but what other point are you supposed to take away from her article?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#25

Post by twisties » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

Few things are impossible. Give the author some credit. I think if your takeaway is that the author is claiming mobility is impossible, you've missed the point entirely.

The author is explaining to you the self-perpetuating cycle and psychology that keeps poor people poor, despite what they feel are their best efforts.

As a person who has struggled with poverty for decades, I find your underlying dismissal of the article as "nah, it's not that bad" based on technical nitpicking pretty offensive.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#26

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

twisties wrote: post #22

falcolas wrote: post #17

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

Across a population this kind of 'bad luck' can have huge economic costs, and is a massive drag on innovation and productivity.

It's not just about personal stories.

Falcolas might not have been able to borrow $100, and would likely have ended up somewhere very different.

And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer.

You might think 'There are others' - and you'd be right.

But the effects scale. If enough people don't get a break, opportunities shrink across the landscape.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#27

Post by twisties » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:52 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #24

Sounds like there's not much point in helping the poor, then, because they're just going to cock it up. I disagree - I think poor people are indeed capable of making good decisions and planning long-term - but what other point are you supposed to take away from her article?

I think the point is that poor people aren't poor because they cock everything up, but because social structures and the very belief that they will cock things up is what denies them the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#28

Post by mercer » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #23

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not eve…

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something.

In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based infrastructure. Cell phones are also not a luxury, even here in Europe, which is why most homeless people have one. Kids are also not a luxury, because, as the author argues, context and basic human needs make it all but impossible for many (most) humans to keep from procreating, accidentally or otherwise.

I think it's intellectually lazy to apply your own situation to others without considering their particulars. Sure, there are times where you can conclude that someone 'deserves' their lot in life, but I've found much more often than not that this lot is a result of external factors, and concluding that it isn't is dangerous, arrogant, and easy.

Edit: I'd add that judging others in this manner often hinges on the assumption that willpower is somehow just a choice, where in actually there's a lot of evidence that it's not, at least in large part.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#29

Post by swatow » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:54 PM UTC

mrow84 wrote: post #21

swatow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going with what your interpretation, I would consider wording it like that to be obfuscation by the author. The author is clearly arguing from a left wing viewpoint, and wants to emphasize lack of social mobility. Fine, but then the author is using an exaggerated and wrong feeling to emphasize this point, even though reality might not be that bad. Like you say, if people do feel like this then it's important to under…

It is worth bearing in mind that this was, as noted at the start of the guardian piece, originally written as a reply on a forum. I don't think it is best to interpret what the author has written as a political argument about the objective "external" nature of reality, but rather as a personal, subjective statement of her own experience. I think if you reread it in that light then it'll probably seem much more reason…

It is very typical on the left for a personal account of the experience and psychology of being X to also be a political argument. Even if the author didn't intend it that way, it's certainly being used in the context of a political argument now. Note the replies by monk_e_boy and rayiner who take the statement on face value and argue that the payoff to education/savings is very small for poor people.

I'm not saying that we should tell poor people to "just get over it". I'm saying that there is a very real difference between what is objectively true, and what some poor people feel to be true[1]. If we confuse these two, it's not possible to have a sensible discussion on the matter. I'm all for helping people out by trying to alleviate the psychological impact of poverty. Personally I favor European/Australian/NZ/Canada style welfare states, it seems like a proven approach.

[1] And the "self fulfilling prophecy" doesn't remove this difference, because there is still a difference between society denying people opportunities directly, and people not taking opportunities that they have because of some self-fulfilling belief.

EDIT: added footnote

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#30

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 7:55 PM UTC

swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

[deleted]