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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

theatlantic.com

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#191

Post by jahmed »

raverbashing wrote: post #159
czep wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals and marketers already know how rich you are based on where you live. Published tax forms will have no effect on your probability of being robbed. It argue tax forms are private, but that's what's at issue here. Many societies think this should be public information. It goes a long way towards preventing graft.

"already know how rich you are based on where you live" Of course... Because if you live at place X you're rich and Y you're poor That is naive at best. "Published tax forms will have no effect on your probability of being robbed." Of course not, so maybe you can start and put your tax info somewhere public.

State employees in California have their pay published yearly. I've never heard of this being even the least bit controversial.

http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/state-pay/#req...

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#192

Post by greggman »

tbrownaw wrote: post #148
paulhauggis wrote: post #88

If all salary was displayed publicly it wouldn't help the employee. It would take almost all negotiating abilities away (a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate) and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rate…

a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate Really? People are all too stupid to understand the value of experience or skill? Personal experience says this is nonsense. and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar r…

> Because you can make a convincing argument that you're worth 20% more.

Except since everyone in the same position at the company will see you're making 20% more the company will have to either pay all of existing employees in the same position 20% more or convince them their new hire is 20% better than all of them.

It seems like the effect would be that either they can't offer you the 20% because they can't afford to give everyone a 20% raise OR several employees will leave because they feel slighted this new guy is getting paid more

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#193

Post by [deleted] »

elwell wrote: post #178
tbrownaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.

Isn't that what glassdoor.com is for?

[deleted]

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#194

Post by Tycho »

Steuard wrote: post #169
smm2000 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% number is bullshit debunked many times. When you control for occupation, working hours, etc between male and female - the difference in pay is only 2-3%

I have no idea what the right number is. But as the article points out, part of the issue is precisely that traditionally female jobs tend to pay less because they are traditionally female. Here's one apparent example of that in action: "One of my lecturers at university once presented us with this thought exercise: why are doctors so highly paid, and so well-respected? Our answers were predictable. Because they save…

Hmm. It's a bit suspicious that communism/socialism isn't part of the argument here.

Seems pretty obvious to me that in a free market, doctors would always be highly paid as they take years to train and everyone, rich or poor, needs them. But in a non-free market where they can't demand their true price, who would want to be a doctor? I'd expect that is a much bigger factor towards it being low status than the fact that it's female dominated.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#195

Post by DougN7 »

lomnakkus wrote: post #187
Amezarak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

> I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot [...] Then I contend that you haven't found a place of employment that values you as an individual and just views you as a cog in a giant machine -- in which case: leave as soon as you can! If possible, start your own business. (Btw, there are places that value individuals, but they are alas few and far between :(. )

I don't understand what you mean. A business has to produce output that others are willing to pay for. Sitting around reading and spending time with a girlfriend are not things most other people will pay you for. It's easy to value a person as an individual - it's quite another thing to take money out of your pocket and give to everyone you 'value' because they are individuals.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#196

Post by tomp »

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41
throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

> And I'm not sure if it is one that can be fixed through legislation

Well, one think the government could do is to cover pay during sick leave, parental leave and child care leave (i.e. when children are sick). This would also benefit startups/new businesses, where employees being sick/pregnant is not just statistics, but can make or break a business.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#197

Post by DougN7 »

nickbauman wrote: post #143
sxp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

It's not so much about 'worth' but fairness. How would you react if you discovered a coworker doing the same (or inferior) work got paid twice as much as you? You might be getting paid a good above-market wage, but most in that position would become jealous and jaded over time. I don't see any way around that.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#198

Post by DougN7 »

nostrademons wrote: post #183
Amezarak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

FWIW, many thinktanks and research consultancies pay you to sit around and read a lot, and occasionally even take long walks in the woods to think. There are often pretty steep barriers to entry - they usually recruit out of the Ivy League or top liberal arts colleges, and it usually helps to know someone there if you want to get in - but those jobs do exist.

They also require you to think and read about whatever their focus is. There are probably few think tanks that match up to everyone's favorite reading materials. There's no getting around the fact that 99.999% of us will have to be paid daily to do something we wouldn't choose to spend the same amount of free time on.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#200

Post by tomp »

SteveGerencser wrote: post #56
mistermann wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)

It is very likely. My wife is a very well respected Engineer in her field and when she was asked to come out of retirement, she retired to start a farm and enjoy the outdoors, they called her back and made what I thought was a very low offer. She was going to accept it because to her it was a work from home gig and was near what she used to make. I said no and helped her negotiate an additional 30% in her rate that s…

> I hear it from her and her female engineering friends a lot.

Well, the two variables your subjects have in common is being engineers as well as being female. Personally (being a male engineer), I'd say being a bad negotiator has just as much to do with being an engineer as being a woman (except if women engineers are even worse negotiators than I am).

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