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Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

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Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#41

Post by romaniv »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #35
Gargoyle888 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an archer of any rank. But my take on this is that he's trying to represent or reproduce the skill of archery when archery was essential to war and hunting. Great skill in an Olympic competition is certainly an impressive achievement but it may be worthless outside the clearly defined rules of competition. Between your 120 bowman and this guy, which one wins in battle and which one brings home fresh meat for…

When archery was essential to war, it was still only "stand and loose" - foot archers typically planted stakes in front to ward off cavalry, or would be on hills or in front of woods. Basically stand still, shoot the buggers, run and hide if anyone charged. As for hunting, that is extreme slowness, and perfect accuracy because you won't get a second shot, and if you move at all before loosing the animal moves too. Hu…

While the notion that "stand and loose" was important in war seems sensible to me, the implication that mobility and shooting speed were irrelevant does not. Being able too shoot fast seems like an immensely useful skill when confronting a mass of enemies that move, have armor and actively try to avoid getting shot. More shots per minute would mean more chance to actually inflict damage.

Also, what about smaller confrontations that did not involve a wall of charging cavalry/footmen?

While the acrobatics is silly, what this guy is doing is impressive and indicate skills that could be applied more broadly.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#42

Post by discardorama »

tlear wrote: post #32

A lot of it makes a ton of sense. But draw weight of the bow and weight of the arrows make a huge difference. Would be really interesting to see him do this even half as effectively using and 80-100lb warbow with heavy war arrows. Weaker stuff will not punch through even the worst armour at any kind of decent range. Also I wonder if this works with light flight arrows used to harass enemy at range and kill horses. Hi…

> Weaker stuff will not punch through even the worst armour at any kind of decent range.

They do show his arrows piercing chainmail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&feature=playe...

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#43

Post by [deleted] »

tlear wrote: post #32

A lot of it makes a ton of sense. But draw weight of the bow and weight of the arrows make a huge difference. Would be really interesting to see him do this even half as effectively using and 80-100lb warbow with heavy war arrows. Weaker stuff will not punch through even the worst armour at any kind of decent range. Also I wonder if this works with light flight arrows used to harass enemy at range and kill horses. Hi…

[deleted]

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#44

Post by sandworm »

As someone who owns a bow (old bowtech patriot) and has spent countless hours in the woods with bows, this guy is a gymnast, not an ancient archer.

(1) Archery has never been about speed. You don't need to be a hunter to appreciate that hunting does not involve any bouncing around like a woodland sprite.

(2) Arrows are not bullets. The do not kill quickly. Shooting at people five or ten feet away is suicide. Even if you hit them through the chest, they will live long enough to get you back. Only in hollywood do targets ever fall down dead when hit with arrows.

(3) The "ancient" archery this guy idolizes never existed. Arrows made from natural substances (wood, bone etc) are not this accurate. Ancient hunters shot very close to animals, so close that they did worry about the animal turning on them (see 2 above). In war, using indirect fire to cover distance, archers always fired en mass. They also drilled to create consistent trajectories in order to concentrate fire. They did not aim at specific targets.

(4) Leveling an arrow on the left of the riser (bow) doesn't require more movements than on right. The arrow is drawn by passing the pointy bit through the bow, between the string and riser, and then drawing it back. One motion, never letting go of the arrow. This is how I was taught to shoot fingers. As for holding extra arrows in your bow hand, this is certainly possible, but you better be careful when pulling them through a closed fists. This guys is using dull target heads, not the bladed tips used when actual trying to kill things.

(I say "fire" but the proper term is "loose", for releasing an arrow).

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#45

Post by cgh »

sandworm wrote: post #44

As someone who owns a bow (old bowtech patriot) and has spent countless hours in the woods with bows, this guy is a gymnast, not an ancient archer. (1) Archery has never been about speed. You don't need to be a hunter to appreciate that hunting does not involve any bouncing around like a woodland sprite. (2) Arrows are not bullets. The do not kill quickly. Shooting at people five or ten feet away is suicide. Even if…

"The "ancient" archery this guy idolizes never existed."

In the video, he says he picked up his ideas from old manuscripts and so forth that show such archery techniques in action (arrow on the right side of the bow, arrows carried in the shooting hand, etc.) and quotes one source (Babylonian? Can't remember) saying these archers had to be able to loose three arrows in 1.5 seconds.

Also, he makes a case for close-quarters combat. I think possibly he's studied this stuff more than you have? His basic claim is that he's re-discovering forgotten techniques so it makes sense your mainstream knowledge of archery wouldn't cover these things.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#46

Post by greetings »

tlear wrote: post #32

A lot of it makes a ton of sense. But draw weight of the bow and weight of the arrows make a huge difference. Would be really interesting to see him do this even half as effectively using and 80-100lb warbow with heavy war arrows. Weaker stuff will not punch through even the worst armour at any kind of decent range. Also I wonder if this works with light flight arrows used to harass enemy at range and kill horses. Hi…

With heavy war arrows you can easily shoot through riveted mail and layers of gambeson. In this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ32VnjOQ28) you can see a war arrow going right through rived mail and 8 layers of gambeson.

This Guy is bowyer and historian, and will be presenting research about this very subject at a medieval studies conference this spring.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#47

Post by ashark »

cgh wrote: post #45
sandworm wrote: post #44

As someone who owns a bow (old bowtech patriot) and has spent countless hours in the woods with bows, this guy is a gymnast, not an ancient archer. (1) Archery has never been about speed. You don't need to be a hunter to appreciate that hunting does not involve any bouncing around like a woodland sprite. (2) Arrows are not bullets. The do not kill quickly. Shooting at people five or ten feet away is suicide. Even if…

"The "ancient" archery this guy idolizes never existed." In the video, he says he picked up his ideas from old manuscripts and so forth that show such archery techniques in action (arrow on the right side of the bow, arrows carried in the shooting hand, etc.) and quotes one source (Babylonian? Can't remember) saying these archers had to be able to loose three arrows in 1.5 seconds. Also, he makes a case for close-qua…

Teucer from The Iliad certainly makes a lot more sense to me if I imagine him fighting like this.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#48

Post by paulgerhardt »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #35
Gargoyle888 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an archer of any rank. But my take on this is that he's trying to represent or reproduce the skill of archery when archery was essential to war and hunting. Great skill in an Olympic competition is certainly an impressive achievement but it may be worthless outside the clearly defined rules of competition. Between your 120 bowman and this guy, which one wins in battle and which one brings home fresh meat for…

When archery was essential to war, it was still only "stand and loose" - foot archers typically planted stakes in front to ward off cavalry, or would be on hills or in front of woods. Basically stand still, shoot the buggers, run and hide if anyone charged. As for hunting, that is extreme slowness, and perfect accuracy because you won't get a second shot, and if you move at all before loosing the animal moves too. Hu…

"Stand and loose" is an ok strategy but "Ride and Loose" let the Mongols capture more territory in 25 years than the Romans did in 400.

Hardly the "only" strategy.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#49

Post by jdmichal »

Gargoyle888 wrote: post #33
dsr_ wrote: post #21

None of these are forgotten archery techniques. Some of them are acrobatic, some are silly, some are unreliable. (Some fall into more than one of those categories.) Modern Olympic archers are all about accuracy, with no points for speed other than an overall time limit. If you want to learn archery with both speed and accuracy, you could do worse than to find your local SCA group. A Royal Round is a set of six arrows…

I'm not an archer of any rank. But my take on this is that he's trying to represent or reproduce the skill of archery when archery was essential to war and hunting. Great skill in an Olympic competition is certainly an impressive achievement but it may be worthless outside the clearly defined rules of competition. Between your 120 bowman and this guy, which one wins in battle and which one brings home fresh meat for…

Being able to reliably hit a very small target at 70 yards at full draw is exactly what I would want for hunting. That game is easily spooked and can likely evade you better than you can chase it. Why in the world would you want to get any closer than necessary and be moving while attempting to shoot it?

Not to mention that his 10 shots at the beginning of the video are no where close to full draw. I'd suspect that even if he did hit an animal with hide that it would not be a lethal shot.

Re: Lars Andersen: a new level of archery [video]

#50

Post by [deleted] »

greetings wrote: post #46
tlear wrote: post #32

A lot of it makes a ton of sense. But draw weight of the bow and weight of the arrows make a huge difference. Would be really interesting to see him do this even half as effectively using and 80-100lb warbow with heavy war arrows. Weaker stuff will not punch through even the worst armour at any kind of decent range. Also I wonder if this works with light flight arrows used to harass enemy at range and kill horses. Hi…

With heavy war arrows you can easily shoot through riveted mail and layers of gambeson. In this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ32VnjOQ28 ) you can see a war arrow going right through rived mail and 8 layers of gambeson. This Guy is bowyer and historian, and will be presenting research about this very subject at a medieval studies conference this spring.

[deleted]
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