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Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

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Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#11
post #2

Yep, it's called deflation and it leads to hoarding behavior and a stagnant economy. See Japan in the 1990s for a good example.

Here is another factor you might consider. What happens to government finances during deflation ?

Well, deflation means falling prices. Prices sponsor wages. Falling prices means falling wages. The large majority of government tax income is a tax on wages, or a tax on consumption. Both of these go down.

Now this wouldn't be so bad, except ... Governments loan money both to fund expenditures and to pay interest on their old loans. Inflation effectively means they can spend 2% of the total amount of their old loans "for free" (by loaning it) (they key thing to realise here is that doing so does not increase the burden on their income, it was 2% of taxes, and it still is). They get this double, since they get it both on the income side, and on the new loans.

Deflation means the opposite. Tax revenues go down, interest payments go up. Unless they want to drastically cut spending, that means they have to use pretty much all of their yearly new loans just to pay back interest.

The problem is also the difference between years :

year 1 : 2% inflation -> government can spend 104% of it's budget year 2 : 2% deflation -> government can spend 96% of it's budget

So 2% inflation necessitates a 10% cut in loan-based spending, which is about half of government spending. So a seemingly tiny amount of deflation requires a 5% spending cut by the government at minimum.

But that is not all. Government taxes have always been effectively a percentage of GDP. Governments have historically been unable to raise tax income. Deflation will lead to a fall in GDP, historically of at least double the amount of the deflation, sometimes much more.

So the other half of government income goes down by ~4% (very, very optimistically).

Now because falling prices and wages mean that the stress on social services increases (for obvious reasons), government expenditures go up, usually again by much more than the amount of deflation you see. It leads to pretty much every part of social security going up. Unemployment, for obvious reasons. But also pensions (people will go on a pension earlier because there's no work) and even illness and disability (well we all know why).

So 2% deflation effectively means the government has to cut spending by ~10%, WHILE social security expenses go up.

The government controls central banks. QE, ostensibly to "cause inflation" hasn't caused inflation (rather the opposite). So in order to absorb this financial shock, the U.S. government has instead decided to finance it's operations by direct money printing, by lending from the money printer. They ran a risk by lending the way the constitution said they should lend, so they "cheated". Now we see the EU (and dozens of other governments, including China and lots of smaller ones) doing the same.

This is also an extremely important factor in central bank behaviour, as they are controlled by governments, and it is the reason that we have not seen the end of QE (except maybe in America, but to be honest, I think there is a non-negligeable chance the US will lower rates instead of raising them, in 6 months).

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#12
post #9
post #3

I would believe these types of pop-economics articles a lot more if they could actually find and example of a deflationary spiral causing a long term depression. Prices for many things already do decrease regularly. Every time I purchase a new computer I'm faced with the knowledge that, in 6 months time, a better, cheaper (or at least better value) model will come out. This myth that consumers will endlessly postpone…

The other reason for so much FUD is that the modern economy is entirely based on debt -- personal, corporate, and (especially) government. Therefore central banks needs to keep the bubble growing perpetually so that the debt can be serviced. But it can't continue forever...

>But it can't continue forever...

Why not? Malthusian predictions have proven to be wrong so far.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#13
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations for confusing micro and macroeconomics. What happens to the price of a single good over the lifetime of that good is not a useful lesson in what happens as a result of broad, economy-wide deflation. Frankly, the issue with purchase postponement isn't the biggest problem (although it's certainly a concern, as is hoarding). In my mind the biggest problem is wages being inelastic downward. As all prices…

Salary is somewhat elastic if nothing else fire and rehighering works. The real issue is debt is not elastic. So it becomes an unbound risk durring deflation.

Yup, also a great point. In the small, anyone holding a mortgage during a deflationary spiral is steadily squeezed. In the large you'll see businesses and government penalized for taking out loans to invest in capex, market expansion, etc, and existing loans become steadily more and more expensive.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#14

If I knew the price of everything I buy would be 1%-2% lower next quarter, it wouldn't affect my spending behavior at all. I have, in fact, known gasoline was dropping by a lot more than that for the past two quarters, and I've not put off even casual consumption. Marginal deflation isn't enough to change my spending habits, and my mortgage and utilities are pretty fixed.

True. But here's what it would affect.

If you are a huge company, or a government, with an extremely large negative net worth (ie. you loaned loads of money). Deflation will cause :

1) your income to go down by more than the deflation amount 2) your loans don't go down

So deflation will kill large companies very quickly, and put governments in a really difficult position.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other reason for so much FUD is that the modern economy is entirely based on debt -- personal, corporate, and (especially) government. Therefore central banks needs to keep the bubble growing perpetually so that the debt can be serviced. But it can't continue forever...

>But it can't continue forever... Why not? Malthusian predictions have proven to be wrong so far.

Past performance does not guarantee future results :)

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#16
This is just stupid IMO, but I'm not any economist.

You worked X time: got 1000€

Day 1: You can buy 1000 candies at 1€ each.

Day 2: Inflation, prices +100%: you can only buy 500 at 2€ each

This means that you just lost 500 candies or 500€. This means that what you worked 50% for nothing! You just lost 50% of your money, just like that! So who has my money? not me of course.

Let's think about deflation:

Day 1: You can buy 1000 candies at 1€ each.

Day 2: Deflation, prices -50%: you can buy 2000 at 0.5€ each

Now if you would only buy 1000 candies you would still have 500€ to spend on other stuff. You might save it or buy other stuff.

Let's think about none of them:

Day 1: You can buy 1000 candies at 1€ each.

Day 2: You can buy 1000 candies at 1€ each.

Today is the same as yesterday, I've worked X hours I buy Y candies, everyday. Why should it change? I know many factors change the price but why?

Well, if you can see inflation is good for the banks. They inject more money in order to make your money less valuable. So in other words you lose money (your hard earned money) while they are just printing easy money! So who is the dumb one? We can do nothing.

Again why deflation is bad?

I would buy to eat even if inflated or deflated, maybe less and more, depending by inflation or deflation. I might even buy higher quality meals.

If I need a new phone do you wait until the prices fall to 100€? No some people still buy them at 1000€. Some not, but is not inflation that will make that change. For example the same people that don't wait a few months for the price of Iphone to fall from 1000€ to 300€ will not wait for deflation to decrease the price from 1000€ to 800€. He just want the Iphone and it will buy it.

This is just a big lie thrown in my face!

please correct me if I'm wrong!!!

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#17
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations for confusing micro and macroeconomics. What happens to the price of a single good over the lifetime of that good is not a useful lesson in what happens as a result of broad, economy-wide deflation. Frankly, the issue with purchase postponement isn't the biggest problem (although it's certainly a concern, as is hoarding). In my mind the biggest problem is wages being inelastic downward. As all prices…

Salary is somewhat elastic if nothing else fire and rehighering works. The real issue is debt is not elastic. So it becomes an unbound risk durring deflation.

Firing and rehiring destroys morale. A perfectly stable and functional company can destroy itself by trying something like this. Employees will start to realize that no matter what they do they're getting shafted and their productivity will drop. Some will seek employment elsewhere, but those are often the ones you want to keep. You'll be stuck with mediocre and bad employees. When you try to fill in positions with new employees, they see a dysfunctional shop and start looking for the exit.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#18
post #3

I would believe these types of pop-economics articles a lot more if they could actually find and example of a deflationary spiral causing a long term depression. Prices for many things already do decrease regularly. Every time I purchase a new computer I'm faced with the knowledge that, in 6 months time, a better, cheaper (or at least better value) model will come out. This myth that consumers will endlessly postpone…

The usual example of a deflation spiral is the 29's crisis. Altough it's not helped by the fact that most developed countries got into a crisis by about the same time, with several kinds of monetary policies, from US deflation to Germany iperinflation, with everything in the middle.

The only point of the article that makes any sense is #5. The author does even ignore the keynesian theory of sticky salaries pricing people out of the labor market (however true it is). It's an almost thought-free article.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#19
post #6
post #3

I would believe these types of pop-economics articles a lot more if they could actually find and example of a deflationary spiral causing a long term depression. Prices for many things already do decrease regularly. Every time I purchase a new computer I'm faced with the knowledge that, in 6 months time, a better, cheaper (or at least better value) model will come out. This myth that consumers will endlessly postpone…

Congratulations for confusing micro and macroeconomics. What happens to the price of a single good over the lifetime of that good is not a useful lesson in what happens as a result of broad, economy-wide deflation. Frankly, the issue with purchase postponement isn't the biggest problem (although it's certainly a concern, as is hoarding). In my mind the biggest problem is wages being inelastic downward. As all prices…

Yeah man, super true!

For example if prices were to start falling I'm going to start putting off the following purchases:

1. New computer

2. New TV

3. New stereo

4. Toilet paper

5. Food

6. Gasoline

7. Rent

8. A new-to-me used pickup truck

9. Clothing

10. Several dozen other things which I can't really wait for but which I will pretend I could for the sake of making a point

EDIT: Yes guys, I do realize that it's a marginal effect and that people aren't going to STOP buying TP. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that the "deflationary spiral" told as a story isn't entirely accurate either. People don't STOP buying things, they simply reduce their consumption ever-so-slightly and if EVERYONE does that, it cuts growth.

My point, though, is that there are a whole bunch of things which aren't really elastic or which already have falling prices but don't cause general malaise. Yes TV purchases do get put off for the next best model, but eventually people do buy TVs and the industry has models that work even given this reality.

In my personal opinion it's not that deflation itself is bad it's that it takes a long time for the deflation to work through the economy and for expectations to readjust. And given the maniacally long maturity of mortgages it takes half a lifetime to reset expectations and it's simply unrealistic.

Re: Why Falling Prices Are Actually a Really Bad Thing

#20
post #3

I would believe these types of pop-economics articles a lot more if they could actually find and example of a deflationary spiral causing a long term depression. Prices for many things already do decrease regularly. Every time I purchase a new computer I'm faced with the knowledge that, in 6 months time, a better, cheaper (or at least better value) model will come out. This myth that consumers will endlessly postpone…

> I would believe these types of pop-economics articles a lot more if they could actually find and example of a deflationary spiral causing a long term depression.

The obvious example would be bitcoin. No one ever spends their BTC, because of the fear that something that costs 1 BTC today will cost only 0.5 BTC tomorrow.

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