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The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

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Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#161

Post by vertex-four »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #102
x0x0 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, to be blunt, bullshit. Frederick doesn't let them do their thing; he actively enables it. That's significantly different. Comparisons to Hitchens are similarly misleading; there is a large difference between enabling vs not stopping. While I support eg the KKK or gamergate jerks' right to talk and organize, I'm damn well not helping pay for it.

A guy that has been using 4chan and other anonymous messageboards since he was 12 acts and thinks like a 4chan user. What a shock. I know it's not the same to you, but if you look at the top 15 boards on 8chan, that list includes a board that Fredrick likely has no interest in (gay porn), boards full of users that he probably disagrees strongly with (/leftypol/, a left wing version of /pol/, and /christian/, iirc he…

If you own a media site (or, let's say, a newspaper), you're very much responsible for what's on it. If you believe in free speech to the point that you'll publish anything anyone wants to say to your audience, then you're very much enabling them and responsible for anything that happens as a result of publishing that.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#162

Post by MrDom »

devindotcom wrote: post #154
MrDom wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why this is downvoted. Moot is involved with somebody at Gawker Media. If he is getting social pressure about "sexist" or "misogynistic" content, like pervycreeper claims, it's not out of line to suggest she could be a huge influence on his behavior.

What's weird about the idea that he would have a friend in the online publishing community with shared views on a controversial topic?

What's weird about the idea that somebody you're sleeping with could affect your judgement?

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#163

Post by vertex-four »

Crito wrote: post #132
x0x0 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, to be blunt, bullshit. Frederick doesn't let them do their thing; he actively enables it. That's significantly different. Comparisons to Hitchens are similarly misleading; there is a large difference between enabling vs not stopping. While I support eg the KKK or gamergate jerks' right to talk and organize, I'm damn well not helping pay for it.

What is the line between "enabling" and "not stopping"? When the ACLU spends money defending the KKK's first amendment rights in court, are they enabling the KKK, or merely not stopping them?

Certainly enabling them. On the other hand, preventing the Government from disallowing them from free speech might be worth that.

That's a different thing from giving them a platform to talk on, though. From a natural rights viewpoint, the KKK should be allowed to say whatever they want, but nobody has to give them a platform to talk on.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#164

Post by Karunamon »

Koahku wrote: post #52
krelian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8chan can't be mentioned because it's a competitor I assume? But what about Gamergate, why is it taboo to discuss it?

Because GamerGate was brewing to become the new chanology, which would have been a disaster for the whole website. As for 8chan I guess it's because its address was being spammed constantly on every board and it's also considered advertising.

That would be grounds for banning advertisment, not mention. As it stands, at least as of a couple months ago, even using the words "gamergate" or "8chan" earned you a three day automatic global ban.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#165

Post by Karunamon »

probably_wrong wrote: post #150
yarrel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's how it started. Get the story right, people!

Maybe you are just trolling, or maybe you actually believe in what you say. I know I used to believe the "it's above games journalism" point of view, as I found it had plenty of merit. In case it's the second one, I have to tell you something: it really isn't about truth in games journalism. I know a lot of people think it is, but it truly isn't. Gamergate's sword are its misogynistic views and its coordinated attack…

Would you care to elaborate on this further?

The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement are there to crap on female developers.

If you have some deeper insights, I'd love for you to share them here. I find GG to be unfairly maligned - and given the fact that they've picked a fight with primarily huge, monied interests with mass media connections, I can see why. It doesn't even need to rise to the level of massive conspiracy.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#166

Post by MrDom »

astrange wrote: post #148
MrDom wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think he deserves ridicule, but not for that. He stood up for the ideals of free, anonymous speech. He believed in it. But he eventually buckled under the weight of it. He was a hero for holding out as long as he did, but all heroes fall. What he's become now is worthy of ridicule.

Interested readers should note that 1. it's impossible to satisfy this poster and their parent at the same time. 2. but both of them will hate you either way. This leads to an important customer service technique I've learned, which is that if you slightly inconvenience the most difficult people they'll just leave and you'll be left with less demanding customers who will actually appreciate you.

If 4chan was a traditional for profit business, I would agree with you. That's not what 4chan is, though. Moot's given talks on the value of anonymous conversation. His view was that it's the only way to have truly free speech, free of racial, social or sexual bias. Where ideas and ideas alone are exchanged. I imagine his opinion on that has changed over the years. That's fine. But in the process, he alienated the very people he created the site for, his core audience.

Ridicule is a natural response to perceived betrayal.

PS: the downvote brigading here is getting out of hand.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#167

Post by potatolicious »

Crito wrote: post #127
wpietri wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is because 4chan was being used as an organizing nexus for a bunch of people widely seen as abusive and misogynist, and he just no longer wanted the headache. Years ago I worked on bianca.com (early community site; founded 1994, Webby 1997, closed in the dot-com bust), which had a similar unfettered-free-speech aspect to it. I feel a lot of sympathy here. Committing to publishing everything is one of those p…

> "My guess is because 4chan was being used as an organizing nexus for a bunch of people widely seen as abusive and misogynist, and he just no longer wanted the headache." If I operated 4chan and wanted to get the racists out of my hair, the last thing I'd do is ban mention of other sites they could go to besides 4chan. If mentioning 8chan gets them to leave 4chan for 8chan, then that's a win for me, right? My guess…

> "If I operated 4chan and wanted to get the racists out of my hair, the last thing I'd do is ban mention of other sites they could go to besides 4chan. If mentioning 8chan gets them to leave 4chan for 8chan, then that's a win for me, right?"

That's what ended up happening though. By barring discussion of GamerGate and 8chan, its supporters wound up on 8chan. After all, the really toxic GamerGaters were already well-organized on Twitter, and banning 8chan-related discussion is not going to stop the die-hard from hearing about 8chan through the grapevine.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#168

Post by ownagefool »

mahranch wrote: post #54

The problem I see with his retiring is one I've experienced on reddit as a moderator. When someone higher than you "retires" or goes otherwise inactive, yet still retains the power they hold, they inevitably come back. It's guaranteed. Even if it's only for a day. That doesn't sound like a problem at first, but it's a HUGE problem. Why? Because new policies, rules or ways of handling things get enacted or evolve and…

It goes the other way too; many communities are now dead because heavy handed moderators who were seldomly the folks who grew said communities. Often, after the death of the original place, the same people can be found stomping on original though in the next popular place, because such people seek their power.

If there are people trying to clean up 4chan, they're probably simultaneously damaging it, because let's be honest, the lax rules, for better or worse, is what it really has going for it.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#169

Post by devindotcom »

MrDom wrote: post #162
devindotcom wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's weird about the idea that he would have a friend in the online publishing community with shared views on a controversial topic?

What's weird about the idea that somebody you're sleeping with could affect your judgement?

It's naive and presumptuous. Have it your way, though.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#170

Post by donatj »

donatj wrote: post #36
knd775 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I can't really support 8chan. The admin/owner/dev/whatever is an absolutely horrible person.

Because he doesn't force your morals onto others he's the bad person?

Do you like others forcing their morals onto you? Assume they feel the same. Treat people as you'd like to be treated. BAM - Golden ruled!

You could tell me how / why I am wrong. I'd appreciate it.

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