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With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

washingtonpost.com

21–30 of 41 posts

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#21
These polls have to be read very carefully. People's responses can vary a lot according to the wording.

In this case the question seems to have been about "investigation" vs "privacy". Investigations don't sound very scary. They sound targeted and high effort. If the question was more like,

"Do you agree that the government should have a camera in every living room and a microphone in everyone's pockets in order to reduce the risk of terrorist attack"

... I suspect the answers would change dramatically, though still show the same age biases (older people who lived through the cold war tend to be more authoritarian).

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "I'm 27, living in Toronto. Most of my acquaintances say things like "I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me", or "Dropbox is just so convenient, it doesn't matter about the NSA". It's upsetting." I've been pretty angry about the revelations over the last year. I'm a private person and don't want the government violating that. However - even though I don't say the things your friends are saying I still use…

DuckDuckGo has made vast strides over the past year, and you choosing to set them as your default browser will only help them improve faster. I had the same complaint as you roughly a year ago, and forced myself to switch for a month or so. After that month, I had gotten used to DuckDuckGo and haven't switched back. 99% of what I need can be found there, and for that last 1% of searches, it takes me approximately 500…

I might try it again now. My issue tends to be obscure programming related questions. I also occasionally click the shipping tab on Google to get a rough price for a product I'm researching.

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#23
I don't see myself as a hero because what I'm doing is self-interested: I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity.

Edward Snowden

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/edward_snowden.h...

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#24
It's the old folks who don't get their information from the internet who are okay with giving up their privacy for security. IMHO they're a lost cause because the mainstream media's stranglehold on them is far too strong to ever break.

Look at the 18-29 demographic in the poll-- neck and neck, and likely to be heavily swayed toward sacrificing privacy by the most recent terrorist attacks in Paris. There can be a real debate with these people, informed by what Snowden brought out.

These are the people who grew up with the internet. They're probably the most likely to have heard of evil government dissent-squashing programs like COINTELPRO and its modern successor, JTRIG. I am always beating this drum to anyone who will listen (and unfortunately I am probably preaching to the choir here), but here's a few thoughts on why trading privacy for security is a terrible decision:

1. Privacy "traded" for security is usually just taken by the government using a flimsy excuse without any input from the public.

2. This stolen privacy is never given back, even when the alleged threat passes.

3. The information gained from stolen privacy will be used for things other than the alleged purpose-- the timely example here is the NSA's parallel construction (legal system circumvention) used to make drug arrests.

4. The information gained from stolen privacy will be used to crush nonviolent dissenters (JTRIG, COINTELPRO, many other programs).

5. The information gained from stolen privacy will be handed off to third parties for gain(corporations, friendly governments)-- Palantir, Google, military contractors, whatever else.

6. The information gained from stolen privacy won't be able to stop whatever it claims it will help in stopping--the perfect example here is the Boston bombing, in which surveillance of the two perpetrators didn't prevent the attack.

7. The information gained from stolen privacy will certainly create a chilling effect which will prevent people from speaking about and eventually thinking about topics they think will get them into trouble-- you see this all the time already with people grumbling about how they are probably "on the list".

I am going to be bold and say that people who support trading privacy for security don't understand the issue, have been systematically misled, desire totalitarianism, or have a monetary incentive.

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#26

I'm frightened that 63% of citizens in their sample value "protection" over privacy. When I've tried to explain the need for privacy to those outside of my circle, I always find my explanation lacking due to my inability to articulate why exactly privacy is important to me. How have others been explaining why privacy is important?

It's a poorly asked proposition.

From the poll: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/...) "Q: What do you think is more important right now - (for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats) or (for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy)?"

That's not really an a/b question.

The real question in my mind whether we believe that every corner of our nation and our lives is a small part of a warzone, in a "cyber war".

That's the disconnect between people on HN and the NSA/military types. They are playing a different game.

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#27
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is like freedom. If you don't value it for its own sake, you're unlikely to see any reason not to sacrifice it for the sake of security (perceived or otherwise).

Privacy is freedom of thought. http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/publications/berlin-keynote.... https://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-...

It's a right too.

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#29
post #15

Privacy has always taken a back seat to security, going all the way back to the dawn of the republic. It strikes me that people who are militant about privacy are doing their cause a disservice by allowing the issue to be framed like this: a preference for "security" over "privacy". The issue is and always has been where the line is drawn. Instead of quoting Ben Franklin and talking about how dumb the American people…

> maybe specific policy prescriptions would be a more productive thing to discuss.

If people are going to take the political route with this, I believe a better argument against pervasive (passive) surveillance is how it by design promotes weakening of security. By design the only defense in place is that a societal knowledge gap exists - at this moment only a small group would know how to exploit those weaknesses. But that knowledge gap will shrink as other nation states catch up and private industry starting training large amounts of people in 'cybersecurity' as is happening now.

I'd bet the average congressman will care more about threats against security than the average citizens privacy.

So people who are looking for policy change might benefit by refining their arguments in this context, instead of assuming people operating in secret will eventually start caring about privacy rights - which I find unlikely. Especially if the people in question are foreigners to the west.

Re: With Snowden in the background, privacy takes a back seat to security

#30
It is a false dilemma.

By losing your privacy you don't get more security. This is the frame the Government(Washington), and the media that depends on Government(like the WP) use so they can benefit from terrorism.

In fact , when you lose your privacy , you lose your security. What happens when the people in power have all the power and no oversight?

Look at Alberto Nisman in Argentina. Look at the Soviet Union for rapist and murderers controlling the police. Nazism in Germany or even the killing of JFK.

Are you safer when you are transparent to them but they are opaque to you?

How a democracy could work where Government operates in absolute secrecy for the people, but people could not hold secrets against the Government?.

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