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N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#81

Post by Demiurge »

meowface wrote: post #78
usbreply wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuxnet. American kids should not be allowed to get a computer science education.

The problem is that a skilled programmer in North Korea may be forced into a government role where they will likely perform unethical work. In the US, the person must voluntarily choose to pursue such a role. (Though I would not consider Stuxnet unethical.)

Right, in US, the government will never force anyone to perform unethical work. That's an interesting assumption.

What if a skilled programmer in North Korea volunteers to perform unethical work? What if a skilled programmer in US volunteers to perform unethical work?

What if "ethics" simply depends on your country of origin?

To be honest, what you and the grandparent post should be saying is that North Korea is the enemy, and to help the enemy in any way is "bad". Why pretend that you're helping the people of North Korea by not helping the people of North Korea so they can't help their country?

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#82

Post by Estragon »

onewaystreet wrote: post #44
nitrogen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly fine to be OK with your government hacking other countries while also being mad when those other countries do the same thing (though it's foolish to be shocked when it happens). I would disagree that this opinion is fine; this is only fine if one selfishly considers oneself more important than the 7000000000+ other people on the planet.

Do you really not consider yourself and family more important than most of the 7000000000+ other people on the planet? There are plenty of people more important than me, but I wouldn't sacrifice myself for any of them. In the same vein, it would be foolish for me, a US citizen, to say that my government should intentionally weaken itself for the benefit of the citizenry of other countries.

  Searching all directions
  with your awareness,
  you find no one dearer
  	than yourself.
  In the same way, others
  are thickly dear to themselves.
  So you shouldn't hurt others
  	if you love yourself.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.01.than.h...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#83

Post by lisptime »

GabrielF00 wrote: post #30
lucb1e wrote: post #3

Might be me, but I'd be surprised if they hadn't. They hacked so many countries including China[1], Mexico[1], Belgium[1], Syria[3], Iran[4], etc. (after saying that a digital attack is an act of war[2]). I don't remember each and every leak and I don't feel like looking up everything, but they seem to have targeted loads of people in various countries. I doubt North Korea (which is not even an ally) is the exception…

I don't believe that the US has ever said that "a digital attack is an act of war". The quote that you linked to says that the United States reserves the right to respond militarily to "hostile acts in cyberspace" if it exhausts all other options and judges the costs of action to be greater than the costs of inaction. The statement is not saying that any cyberattack is an act of war, it is saying that the United Stat…

or they did:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/01/us/politics/01cyber.html?_...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#84

Post by Estragon »

xnull1guest wrote: post #8
phkahler wrote: post #4

If that's true, who's to say our guys didn't launch the attack from their computers? Why would they even admit to being in there? The NSA doesn't say anything unless 1) they have to, or 2) they want to. I don't see why they would make this claim.

Certainly false flag operations are a tactic that has seen reliable and regular use, especially in counterintelligence. But what purpose exactly would a false flag operation against SONY serve? Definitely not as a pretext to take action against North Korea - the US could much more easily justify actions against NK than it has many other nations in its history.

It's certainly being used as a pretext to lock down legal control of independent computation. The proposed updates to the CFAA and Obama's siding with Cameron on the intolerability of government-opaque communications have more credibility as a result of it. And it lends credibility to the steady reports from "a government official with knowledge of the matter" that US infrastructure is only an exploit away from being disabled by a hostile nation state, and to possible anti-hacker propaganda like the movie "Blackhat."

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#85

Post by [deleted] »

meowface wrote: post #78
usbreply wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuxnet. American kids should not be allowed to get a computer science education.

The problem is that a skilled programmer in North Korea may be forced into a government role where they will likely perform unethical work. In the US, the person must voluntarily choose to pursue such a role. (Though I would not consider Stuxnet unethical.)

[deleted]

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#86

Post by chongli »

kimjonsegfault wrote: post #79
chroma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to Chi…

Yes, and European fascism was okay because the trains were always on time.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#87

Post by saraid216 »

usbreply wrote: post #77
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

Stuxnet. American kids should not be allowed to get a computer science education.

It's honestly sad that you picked Stuxnet, an attack that did no appreciable harm to human lives, as opposed to the entire arsenal of munitions available to the Joint Armed Forces.

We have invented, but more importantly manufactured, a lot of pretty fucking effective weaponry.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#88

Post by acqq »

chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

"I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gotten in trouble. (I don't want to single him out,"

You are still doing it by writing that, and actually you aren't suggesting that the trouble to him would come from DPRK, but you are "nicely" suggesting he should get "in trouble" in the US just for lecturing in DPRK. Basically claiming, without writing the words that you are "surprised" he isn't considered a "traitor":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#89

Post by higherpurpose »

redstripe wrote: post #66
sandworm wrote: post #60

Anyone else notice this: "We realized there was another actor [South Korea] that was also going against them [North Korea] and having great success because of a 0 day they wrote. We got the 0 day out of passive and were able to re-purpose it. Big win." NSA learned of a 0-day exploit being used by South Korea (not five eyes) and re-purposed it. They had knowledge of an exploit in the wild. Did they share this with any…

Are you suggesting the NSA should be a government funded QA department for large corps and open source? For commercial software the companies who are not finding these bugs on their own are to blame. For open source, the cheapskates who mooch free software without contributing are too blame.

NSA, no. But a non-NSA influenced USG, or some other new agency that should be in charge of cyber-security and not cyber-war (like NSA is) should be responsible for that. Developing strong security policies, finding about loopholes, and then nagging companies and government about fixing those loopholes and implementing those strong security policies (such as: "Go enable HTTPS for your site already god damn it, EPA!!"). NSA doesnt do anything like that right now, yet they keep yelling from the rooftops about "cyber security".

The NSA should have absolutely no relationship with this agency. If NSA finds out about some "catastrophic" loophole, then they should disclose it to multiple agencies at the same time, including this new cybersecurity agency, and should have no "special" relationship with it.

Also this new agency should be a civil agency, not a military or a spy one. NSA is and has always been a "war-time" agency, even if it has been used for non-war purposes (in my opinion wrongfully). Security is in most cases not about war. So why do we let a war-time agency try to militarize the Internet and treat it as a battleground, with everyone's computers as collateral damage, even if there's no immediate danger of "war"?

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#90

Post by kimjonsegfault »

chongli wrote: post #86
kimjonsegfault wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to Chi…

Yes, and European fascism was okay because the trains were always on time.

North Korea is not a fascist or nationalistic regime. And it's only been turned into a concentration camp by the West through sanctions. It's not even any more antithesis to democracy either. The party members are elected. The institution members are promoted by performance like anywhere else. The 'supreme leader' being some sort of a Sauron is a fantasy. Since you're comparing to Nazi Germany, you should also know that Hitler wasn't some sort of a god who bent everyone to his will. He was a leader of a party and a movement with the fascist ideology. Please don't equate Nazism and Communism.
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