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N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#61

Post by gojock »

chroma wrote: post #57
thejosh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that same argument can be made for pretty much any other country... why teach computer science to US, as they have shown they can't be trusted - they will probably end up in the NSA!

Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people. They imprison, torture, and execute their citizens for being related to someone who watched South Korean television. It is quite likely the most harmful regime on the planet. Read some stories from North Korean defectors. Then let me know just how content you are with people contributing to the DPR…

> Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people.

Great point - the USA only kills millions of other nations people[0][1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#62

Post by xnull2guest »

lurchpop wrote: post #40
xnull1guest wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly false flag operations are a tactic that has seen reliable and regular use, especially in counterintelligence. But what purpose exactly would a false flag operation against SONY serve? Definitely not as a pretext to take action against North Korea - the US could much more easily justify actions against NK than it has many other nations in its history.

I think the recent re-introduction of CISPA and calls by world leaders to end encryption hint at the qui bono.

Weren't the calls to ban crypto in response to the Charlie Hebdo attacks? Wouldn't the elimination of strong crypto make cyberattacks much worse?

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#63

Post by xnull2guest »

grecy wrote: post #58

In 5 years time when this tit for tat results in some massive disruption in the US (power outage or something) people are going to be severely angry and say NK attacked them for no reason, etc. (i.e 9/11) The US yet again going around the world making enemies, and giving them perfectly valid reasons to retaliate.

In some sense, this has already happened. The US State Department seems to have been involved, at least to some degree, with the development of The Interview as a propaganda effort (see the leaked Lynton emails) and this has upset North Korea, since it knows the movie would get leaked to its people.

The current narrative is that North Korea (or sympathizers) attacked SONY for absolutely no reason - or that they wanted to silence free speech arbitrarily.

The United States is regularly hacked by foreign states and regularly hacks them. Hopefully the development of international norms and increased investment in computer security cools global tensions and prevents the kind of infrastructure sabotage that would result in human casualties from happening.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#64

Post by sandworm »

comex wrote: post #34
Estragon wrote: post #15

Typical for the NYT to bury the strong countervailing evidence against the official war-mongering story in a couple of paragraphs 2/3rds of the way through the article. Still, the sophistication of the Sony hack was such that many experts say they are skeptical that North Korea was the culprit, or the lone culprit. They have suggested it was an insider, a disgruntled Sony ex-employee or an outside group cleverly mimi…

Typical for Hacker News posters (in general) to dislike the United States government so much that, despite having complained and worried and speculated about the sophistication of the NSA's online snooping for the last year in a half, they assume that the government couldn't possibly have obtained any evidence they didn't want to release to the public, instead trusting the high certainty of experts who have decided t…

Does anyone not believe they had similar access to Iraqi systems before either of the wars? The problem with good intelligence is that sometimes it doesn't mesh with your political goals.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomber_gap

"Realizing that mere belief in the gap was an extremely effective funding source, a series of similarly nonexistent Soviet military advances were constructed in a tactic now known as "policy by press release." "

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#65

Post by akg_67 »

chroma wrote: post #57
thejosh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that same argument can be made for pretty much any other country... why teach computer science to US, as they have shown they can't be trusted - they will probably end up in the NSA!

Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people. They imprison, torture, and execute their citizens for being related to someone who watched South Korean television. It is quite likely the most harmful regime on the planet. Read some stories from North Korean defectors. Then let me know just how content you are with people contributing to the DPR…

"The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive."

It is the same argument made by nuclear non-proliferation countries. Only responsible countries should own the nuclear weapons. Well, guess how that argument turned out. The only country to use nuclear weapon is the one calls itself responsible one.

Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering and medical or any subject because they all can be used as "weapon" for nefarious purposes.

Keeping the population of a country uneducated because you don't agree with the government running the country is discriminatory and racist. No person irrespective of race or belief or country of citizenship should be denied education.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#66

Post by redstripe »

sandworm wrote: post #60

Anyone else notice this: "We realized there was another actor [South Korea] that was also going against them [North Korea] and having great success because of a 0 day they wrote. We got the 0 day out of passive and were able to re-purpose it. Big win." NSA learned of a 0-day exploit being used by South Korea (not five eyes) and re-purposed it. They had knowledge of an exploit in the wild. Did they share this with any…

Are you suggesting the NSA should be a government funded QA department for large corps and open source?

For commercial software the companies who are not finding these bugs on their own are to blame. For open source, the cheapskates who mooch free software without contributing are too blame.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#67

Post by sandworm »

a1a wrote: post #49
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

I disagree. I believe education is an excellent way to free the north korean people from the brainwashing machine that is the DPRK. More DPRK people with the hacker mindset (e.g. not just accepting answers but asking questions, a hunger for knowledge, etc) would in the long term be a really great thing for everyone but the leaders of DPRK.

I used to think that way, that education would inevitably lead people to more egalitarian belief structures. Then I spent a few years at school in the US. I met many very educated people (ie well beyond undergrad) that scared the heck out of me. It is very possible to have an advanced CS degree and still believe in a ridged class system.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#68

Post by sandworm »

redstripe wrote: post #66
sandworm wrote: post #60

Anyone else notice this: "We realized there was another actor [South Korea] that was also going against them [North Korea] and having great success because of a 0 day they wrote. We got the 0 day out of passive and were able to re-purpose it. Big win." NSA learned of a 0-day exploit being used by South Korea (not five eyes) and re-purposed it. They had knowledge of an exploit in the wild. Did they share this with any…

Are you suggesting the NSA should be a government funded QA department for large corps and open source? For commercial software the companies who are not finding these bugs on their own are to blame. For open source, the cheapskates who mooch free software without contributing are too blame.

Yes and no. They are tasked with protecting national security assets within the US, most of which rely on commercial systems. When they find a dangerous flaw in those systems, especially one loose in the wild, they are to help fix it. To not fix it is to leave US systems at risk.

"in almost all instances, for widely used code, it is in the national interest to eliminate software vulnerabilities rather than to use them for US intelligence collection" ( quote from the 2013 panel report, not wired.)

http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/White-House-...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#69

Post by ForHackernews »

chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

I flatter myself that I was a pretty competent computer science student, but I'm certainly not a security researcher. I think you're overestimating how much basic computer science knowledge has any applicability to offensive black hat hacking.

Your argument is close to "Nobody should teach basic chemistry in the middle east, because hey, terrorists might use that knowledge to make bombs."

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#70

Post by nitrogen »

onewaystreet wrote: post #44
nitrogen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly fine to be OK with your government hacking other countries while also being mad when those other countries do the same thing (though it's foolish to be shocked when it happens). I would disagree that this opinion is fine; this is only fine if one selfishly considers oneself more important than the 7000000000+ other people on the planet.

Do you really not consider yourself and family more important than most of the 7000000000+ other people on the planet? There are plenty of people more important than me, but I wouldn't sacrifice myself for any of them. In the same vein, it would be foolish for me, a US citizen, to say that my government should intentionally weaken itself for the benefit of the citizenry of other countries.

...government should intentionally weaken itself for the benefit of the citizenry of other countries.

Considering that the majority of Earth's people and natural resources lie outside the US, the long-term best move for the US is to promote global stability and equality. It's not a matter of weakness vs. strength, but short-term vs. long-term thinking.

There are plenty of people more important than me, but I wouldn't sacrifice myself for any of them.

Personally, I think humanity as a whole is pretty important. I wouldn't sacrifice myself for one other person without a really good reason, but I'm more than happy to accept a small short term decrease in local living standards in exchange for the long term stability and prosperity that would come from raising global living standards.

Specifically with regards to surveillance, the NSA is weakening the long-term position of US companies by leaving their systems and software vulnerable to known exploits, and by their actions, encouraging other countries to do the same. It's a negative sum game.

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