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New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

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Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#241

Post by rtpg »

happyscrappy wrote: post #220
TeMPOraL wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. Terrorism is indeed very real, and is happening all the time. Hundreds of acts of terror have been committed in the years since 9/11, resulting in deaths of thousands of civilians, including hundreds of children. They those acts have pretty much 0 media coverage, and no one is doing anything to stop them. The US is free to keep on terrorizing civilian populations ar…

Who do you think is going to stop them? The US can do what ever they want because Europe permanently has its head up its ass.

This comment is counterproductive, because it implies Europe (or more specifically the EU) has no agency.

The fact is that the EU wants to apply even more crazy gov't surveillance tactics, and don't need the US pushing it. By saying this, you're giving them an "out" ('oh, big bad Uncle Sam basically forced us to play along!').

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#242

Post by happyscrappy »

rtpg wrote: post #241
happyscrappy wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think is going to stop them? The US can do what ever they want because Europe permanently has its head up its ass.

This comment is counterproductive, because it implies Europe (or more specifically the EU) has no agency. The fact is that the EU wants to apply even more crazy gov't surveillance tactics, and don't need the US pushing it. By saying this, you're giving them an "out" ('oh, big bad Uncle Sam basically forced us to play along!').

Yes, this is how things work. Europeans blame the U.S. and let their own governments off the hook thereby guaranteeing US dominance.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#243

Post by alecco »

mikegioia wrote: post #239
omphalos wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One approach to countering sock-puppetry as a general problem is with increased transparency. Personally, I think lobste.rs' notion of a user tree is a step in the right direction: https://lobste.rs/u

Do you have an account there? I would love to get an invite if so, that site looks really cool.

The introduction tree is a great idea. But lobsters community is junk. If you dare have an opinion against their hivemind you get donwvoted to oblivion. It's like a clique took over.

Reddit had a similar problem with truthers taking over discourse at the beginning, luckily it went away. Perhaps because there was a popular parody account mocking them all the time (something like 9_11_was_an_inside_job), and that account retired in time when it's job was done.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#244

Post by aurelius »

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

What comments in support of the NSA? Any comments in support of the NSA here are IMMEDIATELY flag-killed by the HN Nazis who love to suppress any kind of free speech they don't agree with.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#245

Post by foobarqux »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #219
alecco wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Obama and US congress made it clear we foreign people are just fair game for targeting. At least I'm lucky not to live in a country where targeted assassinations are going on. Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. The main reason is power and control. Corporate espionage and controlling US-unfriendly political movements is very likely the main goal.

> Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. Terrorism is indeed very real, and is happening all the time. Hundreds of acts of terror have been committed in the years since 9/11, resulting in deaths of thousands of civilians, including hundreds of children. They those acts have pretty much 0 media coverage, and no one is doing anything to stop them. The US is free to keep on terrorizing civilian populations ar…

It's real but even Hayden openly said that it wasn't the main reason for surveillance.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#246

Post by pferde »

angersock wrote: post #47
TheOsiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

precisely, and this is why I'm starting to think that snowden has - at least - caused as much harm as good by his revelations. if he had stopped at revealing the domestic surveillance he would be an undisputed hero/patriot. but with all of these unnecessary leaks that does nothing but harm to national interest I can understand how others might view him otherwise.

Have you considered that the public interest and the national interest are not one and the same?

But shouldn't it be? At least USA has this weird motto for its government: "of the people, by the people, for the people".

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#247

Post by amirmc »

happyscrappy wrote: post #236
acqq wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You totally ignore all the deaths of civilians caused by the US military and other actions.

Drones, contrary to popular belief, reduce civilian casualties.

Redefining 'civilian' also reduces civilian casualties.

"It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent."

I don't imagine anyone cares to do the posthumous intelligence checks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in...

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#248

Post by thesagan »

diminoten wrote: post #206
serf wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a casual reader of the NSA/GCHQ/Snowden threads on HM I have mentally check-marked nearly every comment of yours within this thread as a different form of documented tactic of subversion used by forum plants. You sling personal insults, you point out trivial errors and falsehoods in statements by others which have nothing to do with the given point, you attempt to diminish reputations, and whatever other tactics a…

Oh no, an Internet person doesn't like me.

More like not at all persuaded. He's not persuaded.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#249

Post by acqq »

happyscrappy wrote: post #236
acqq wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You totally ignore all the deaths of civilians caused by the US military and other actions.

Drones, contrary to popular belief, reduce civilian casualties.

Only during 2003-2006 US war period in Iraq there were some 600000 Iraqis killed, most of them civilians:

http://leksikon.org/images/iraq_lancet2.pdf

There was no al Qaeda in Iraq before US attacked it:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/still-clueless-about-al-...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/15/bush-acknowledges-a...

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#250

Post by woah »

thefreeman wrote: post #172

The NSA should just leak documents showing all of the other governments doing this stuff so we can move on from the Anti US/UK circle jerk. Seriously if you think your government hasn't invested serious time and money in digital subterfuge you are living in a dream world and need to wake up.

Classic straw man. Many of the documents leaked have shown that our allies are doing the same, usually with the NSA's help. Of non U.S. allies most countries are too small to have serious programs, or are plainly doing much worse. I suppose this is some sort of perverse defense of the NSA, but the fact is that luckily most people would like to hold their government to a higher standard, instead of saying "the other guys are worse". If more people had had your attitude a few hundred years ago, we wouldn't even have democracy, as there would have been plenty more brutal and totalitarian regimes to point to.
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