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Robert Morris: All About Programming

paulgraham.com

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Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#41

Post by nileshtrivedi »

quaunaut wrote: post #13

This is one of those places where I've been really conflicted for as long as I've been back with programming. Right now, I'm going with the path that not only makes more money(and thusly induces less stress), but also has a higher probability of making people's lives better, through the kinds of things I want to put my time and effort into being focused around enabling people to create their own jobs. Yet I know extr…

Given that money has a time value, it makes sense to do the latter in your early years and gradually tilt the balance towards the former.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#42

Post by lgieron »

lumpypua wrote: post #20
auggierose wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I advice you to stay away from the psychedelics. Trust me, this is an advice you can't afford not to believe until it is too late.

You've clearly been burned. That's fine, but tell us your story rather than giving some vague advice devoid of context.

My friend's mental health was seriously and irreversibly damaged by a one time adventure with psychedelics... Apparenty, non-negligible (over 1%?) portion of the population reacts this way.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#43

Post by jarcane »

jimbokun wrote: post #15
jarcane wrote: post #10

I stayed away from pursuing programming as a vocation for almost 15 years. I intuitively knew as a child that there were parts of programming and using computers which "weren't work" for me, but also very much ones that were, and I foresaw the probability that I might cease to enjoy the "not work" parts after being ground down by too much work. As I come back to it now, I still think that. Increasingly I think it rea…

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons Paul Graham and Robert Morris started their own company was because they didn't want to take a job writing software for Windows. I also believe the guys who started ITA software wanted a problem domain where they could justify using Lisp. So there are a few precedents for finding an excuse to use more expressive languages to solve challenging problems, in a way that makes money.

Something I've come to understand as an expat is why so many expats and immigrants wind up starting their own businesses rather than seeking local employment; it's not necessarily fun to work through bureaucracy with a language barrier involved, but at least your day to day job is in the language you know and you can get on with it.

Perhaps there's something to that in programming languages as well; I sometimes wonder if the reason for the explosion in startups and web applications is that for as much as I hate fighting with CSS and HTML templates, at least it's better than trying to make sense of the Windows API. And if you've grown up, as many young startup coders do, with the world of JavaScript and the web, it's what you know as much as Lisp was what guys like Paul Graham knew.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#44

Post by jarcane »

allendoerfer wrote: post #21

> My father tried to interest me in programming somewhat before high school; it didn't work, and I didn't continue then. I suspect, that it almost never works that way. Learning programming or hacking as a child is all about figuring it out on your own, doing something, what your parents or your teachers can not understand, defining your own identity. That is why I doubt that all the programs in the US, which try to…

I genuinely believe that the best thing anyone ever did for encouraging programming was putting a BASIC interpreter in every home computer.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#45

Post by Gracana »

gwern wrote: post #32
pakled_engineer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small stealth mode startup in Vancouver, Canada that does custom DSLs for the oil & gas industry. I found the job on my local CL, they were advertising looking for anybody who had read SICP, or had experience doing functional programming. It doesn't pay a lot but enough to live comfortably while single plus I get to hack around in Scheme all day, though now they want me to learn Haskell too. I work 6hrs a day usually…

A job for the oil & gas industry which requires SICP level coders which doesn't pay well? I'm not sure what to think - that that industry really doesn't pay well, or that you need to read patio11's guide to salary negotiations.

He explains that he's happy and says he lives comfortably. Why is that not enough?

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#46

Post by gwern »

Gracana wrote: post #45
gwern wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A job for the oil & gas industry which requires SICP level coders which doesn't pay well? I'm not sure what to think - that that industry really doesn't pay well, or that you need to read patio11's guide to salary negotiations.

He explains that he's happy and says he lives comfortably. Why is that not enough?

Because if he's making a below-market salary as it sounds like, he could be doing better. With a higher salary, he could have more savings, more security, more easily afford a family or the things he wants, donate more to charity, spend more on personal hobbies, etc. Money has many uses.

And I could ask you the same question: the startup founders and oil industry would live comfortably enough if they made a little less and paid him better; why is that not enough? Why should they be making more?

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#47

Post by electronvolt »

RickHull wrote: post #36
electronvolt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain it's this, given the history of CS and programming. It started as a branch of mathematics. As an academic field, even in the 1980s/1990s and in some places today, it was/is taught as a branch of math. And comparatively, programming/operating computers was not high prestige and was seen more as grunt work. Interestingly, in some ways the people in Bell Labs were right: the mathematics is what object…

> Consider: how much mathematics from the 1950s is still in use and relevant, versus how much written code is still in use and relevant? This is the wrong question. CS isn't hardly about code. Most of our CS today is from before the 1950s.

You're correct that CS isn't about code. Programming is, and that's what I was drawing the comparison with.

Most of the CS we have from pre-1950 is fundamentally mathematics: algorithms, theory of computation, etc.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#48

Post by shutupalready »

lgieron wrote: post #42
lumpypua wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've clearly been burned. That's fine, but tell us your story rather than giving some vague advice devoid of context.

My friend's mental health was seriously and irreversibly damaged by a one time adventure with psychedelics... Apparenty, non-negligible (over 1%?) portion of the population reacts this way.

I know a kid whose throat swelled up, couldn't breathe for several minutes, and suffered brain damage after a one time incident of eating peanuts... Apparently, non-negligible (over 1% [1]) portion of the population reacts this way.

Lesson for everybody: Don't eat nuts!

[1] http://www.mountsinai.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/r...

Your argument against psychedelics is not persuasive in the manner presented.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#49

Post by lgieron »

shutupalready wrote: post #48
lgieron wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend's mental health was seriously and irreversibly damaged by a one time adventure with psychedelics... Apparenty, non-negligible (over 1%?) portion of the population reacts this way.

I know a kid whose throat swelled up, couldn't breathe for several minutes, and suffered brain damage after a one time incident of eating peanuts... Apparently, non-negligible (over 1% [1]) portion of the population reacts this way. Lesson for everybody: Don't eat nuts! [1] http://www.mountsinai.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/r... Your argument against psychedelics is not persuasive in the manner presented.

It depends on how much risk averse you are - I know that, for me, trying out psychedelics is not worth the 1% risk of going into psychotic breakdown, being admitted to psychiatric ward or even messing myself up permanently. For others it might be worth it.

Re: Robert Morris: All About Programming

#50

Post by nazka »

fit2rule wrote: post #39
3pt14159 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mom taught me programming as a 6 year old almost 25 years ago. I went on to study it at college night school from 10 to 14 and held a job before graduating high school programming ASP, JS, and MS SQL. Sometimes parents can teach their children things and have it stick.

Yeah, not everything involving generations is so myopic. My kids, 7 and 4, are absolutely entranced by computers and love to sit down at our old-school 8-bit battlestation and bash things out. The elder has figured out how to do his maths homework on it, and the younger has become an expert at loading files and running them. None of this would be possible if I hadn't encouraged them to investigate computers by settin…

I will be very interested if one day you write about it. How you "designed" the right battlestation (not too hard, but still challenging enough for their age), and how you get them interested while avoiding not to over push them.

Really cool!

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