Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#21

Post by stefantalpalaru » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #18

IvyMike wrote: post #10

As an Android/Maps/Chrome user, Google answers all of my questions, tells me what to buy, tells me where to go, and directs and monitors all of my communications. I think the only question left is: did you notice? Edit: Dear immediate downvoter: I'm far more serious about this than you think. How do you define an AI? I'm personally convinced Google qualifies. I once asked Google, "What's that thing where a boat is re…

It's true, but that's still considered "soft AI", I believe. It's highly intelligent and can reason about the world based on a huge database of available information. It can make inferences. However, it is not "self-aware," by any definition. (Which there are many, I guess.) You might say it is "externally aware," I suppose, but "self-aware" is something else entirely. It seems to carry with it some implications of s…

Can something that's not self-aware - and most likely not even aware at all - be highly intelligent?

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#22

Post by MarkPNeyer » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #18

IvyMike wrote: post #10

As an Android/Maps/Chrome user, Google answers all of my questions, tells me what to buy, tells me where to go, and directs and monitors all of my communications. I think the only question left is: did you notice? Edit: Dear immediate downvoter: I'm far more serious about this than you think. How do you define an AI? I'm personally convinced Google qualifies. I once asked Google, "What's that thing where a boat is re…

It's true, but that's still considered "soft AI", I believe. It's highly intelligent and can reason about the world based on a huge database of available information. It can make inferences. However, it is not "self-aware," by any definition. (Which there are many, I guess.) You might say it is "externally aware," I suppose, but "self-aware" is something else entirely. It seems to carry with it some implications of s…

> "what do I want to do with myself, now that I'm here." This may or may not include instincts towards self-preservation.

"i want to increase the amount people trust me, to reduce the chances that they will get rid of me." check.

"i want to increase the amount people rely on me". check.

"i want to increase the amount of resources that flow through me, including engineers that work on me, hardware that runs me, and ads that are spent on me." check.

"i want an article about me to be on hacker news, with people debating whether or not i'm as smart as i think i am" - check. that last one is one I'D like to accomplish, but i've been unable to, myself. most people consider ME self aware because i operate through a human body. that's kind of silly; it's more political than it is empirical.

i can tell you for a fact i was not fully self aware for most of my life; i was not aware of all of myself. i was walking in circles without realizing it. i feel like i'm _more_ self aware now, but im still aware there are things i am doing for reasons that i don't understand.

'humans are self-aware' is a heuristic. it served us ok for the last few thousands years, but it's going to start having serious problems in the future.

even when we have ai's that write business plans, raise capital, and launch companies - would you still ask if it were self aware? would your question be any different if you were told that all of this done by google were done by a human being named Alice, with such and such parents, who likes to eat ice cream and watch old mystery movies on netflix?

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#23

Post by riffraff » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #21

radarsat1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but that's still considered "soft AI", I believe. It's highly intelligent and can reason about the world based on a huge database of available information. It can make inferences. However, it is not "self-aware," by any definition. (Which there are many, I guess.) You might say it is "externally aware," I suppose, but "self-aware" is something else entirely. It seems to carry with it some implications of s…

Can something that's not self-aware - and most likely not even aware at all - be highly intelligent?

for people who might not know, that is likely the chinese room argument[0]

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#24

Post by joeyspn » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:52 PM UTC

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#25

Post by natch » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:54 PM UTC

I suspect we already have several near-AIs in our midst, some beyond the ability of a single human brain, but we don't recognize them because we impose needless constraints on the definition of "AI" and claim that only things that meet those artificial constraints qualify as AI.

A typical unvoiced (possibly false) assumption about AI amongst even AI experts might be something like: "Well it has to be a system that was designed by human experts, in order to qualify... something that just emerges from human activity is not an AI."

A few things that could qualify, if we relaxed this and other false constraints:

- The global financial system, when viewed as a single entity.

- The consciousness formed by the combination of the Internet along with all the minds of the people who use it (what Kevin Kelly has called "the one").

- Google's systems, at least some of them.

These things are creeping up on us. Just taking the first one, the global financial system is barely under control (or maybe not at all), although many different human controlled entities do hold the reins of various facets of it.

It has self awareness, senses, learning, built in agendas, competing sub-entities with agency and their own various agendas, defense mechanisms, and ways of exerting influence.

One could argue it also has a global agenda (balance might be a word for it... a decent agenda, for the moment, fortunately).

We've seen how it can sometimes go off the rails in ways that have challenging if not disastrous consequences for the well being of humanity.

We don't call it AI, but it's certainly something that bears watching almost as much as an AI would. Just like the other examples I mentioned.

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#26

Post by dedward » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:01 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #18

IvyMike wrote: post #10

As an Android/Maps/Chrome user, Google answers all of my questions, tells me what to buy, tells me where to go, and directs and monitors all of my communications. I think the only question left is: did you notice? Edit: Dear immediate downvoter: I'm far more serious about this than you think. How do you define an AI? I'm personally convinced Google qualifies. I once asked Google, "What's that thing where a boat is re…

It's true, but that's still considered "soft AI", I believe. It's highly intelligent and can reason about the world based on a huge database of available information. It can make inferences. However, it is not "self-aware," by any definition. (Which there are many, I guess.) You might say it is "externally aware," I suppose, but "self-aware" is something else entirely. It seems to carry with it some implications of s…

The question said "AI" - not "self-aware consciousness"

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#27

Post by ossreality » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

acheron wrote: post #20

IvyMike wrote: post #10

As an Android/Maps/Chrome user, Google answers all of my questions, tells me what to buy, tells me where to go, and directs and monitors all of my communications. I think the only question left is: did you notice? Edit: Dear immediate downvoter: I'm far more serious about this than you think. How do you define an AI? I'm personally convinced Google qualifies. I once asked Google, "What's that thing where a boat is re…

Thanks for reminding me why I'm an iPhone/Apple Maps/Firefox/DuckDuckGo user.

What a pithy, completely fucking useless statement. Everyone looks at that and rolls their eyes and pities you for saying that aloud.

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#28

Post by xanderstrike » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:15 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #18

IvyMike wrote: post #10

As an Android/Maps/Chrome user, Google answers all of my questions, tells me what to buy, tells me where to go, and directs and monitors all of my communications. I think the only question left is: did you notice? Edit: Dear immediate downvoter: I'm far more serious about this than you think. How do you define an AI? I'm personally convinced Google qualifies. I once asked Google, "What's that thing where a boat is re…

It's true, but that's still considered "soft AI", I believe. It's highly intelligent and can reason about the world based on a huge database of available information. It can make inferences. However, it is not "self-aware," by any definition. (Which there are many, I guess.) You might say it is "externally aware," I suppose, but "self-aware" is something else entirely. It seems to carry with it some implications of s…

If I say "OK Google, what is Google?" it gives me the definition of google (the search engine). Google is therefore aware of Google.

So by at least one definition of self aware, it is self aware.

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#29

Post by davecheney » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:17 PM UTC

With all the wrong in this world at the moment you want to speculate on additional imaginary evils? You need to get your priorities straight.

Re: Ask HN: If an AI had slipped into the world would we notice?

#30

Post by timClicks » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 11:20 PM UTC

We also need to define who 'we' are. What proportion of the world's population needs to notice before we've noticed?

In a Singularity, I don't think we would notice the AI itself, but only its effects. Suddenly things will just get a lot easier and/or a lot worse depending on who you are and the fitness function of the underlying AI engine. (I tend to believe that a sentient, recursively self-improving AI wouldn't be able to decouple itself from the fitness function of its pre-Singularity origins)