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New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

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Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#61

Post by Cakez0r »

ed wrote: post #12
pdknsk wrote: post #8

There was a long interview with Snowden posted recently, which didn't make it to the frontpage. I guess because of Snowden penalty on HN and Snowden fatigue. Anyway, he kept repeating a point which is quite easy to understand for the public I think. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8859606 And the reality is when it comes to cyber conflicts [...], we have more to lose. We spend more on research and development th…

There's no reason to pick Offense vs. Defense any more than there is Social Security vs. Education. It's just a question of budgeting. Why wouldn't we invest in both?

I think offensive vs defensive is a very easy choice. We want to prevent our systems from being compromised, but don't have any business provoking attacks by breaking into systems. Invest in defense.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#62

Post by [deleted] »

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

[deleted]

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#63

Post by throwaway349823 »

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

It's exactly this unrealistic notion of having your cake and eating it too that landed us in this mess in the first place. And what do you mean by "defensive capability"? Secretive military organizations isn't going to protect civil society. In fact their influence is often in opposition to such protection.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#64

Post by Cakez0r »

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

Was thinking the same thing. Comments asking unbiased and valid questions are being downvoted...

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#65

Post by iwwr »

sroerick wrote: post #24
Afforess wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

The article addresses this very point. It specifically explores the conflict of interest that the NSA must work both offensively and defensively. It makes the argument that the balance has shifted so drastically to the offensive that our defensive is being weakened.

What the article fails to mention is the NSA's instrumental efforts in weakening crypto standards and computer security in general. We don't know the extent of that undermining yet, but it's likely significant. They are also hoarding security vulnerabilities and not releasing them, as responsible researchers should. They're weakening security for everyone.

Now, the US government as a whole is in a very strong position to actually push for genuine security compliance and to ultimately defend against even the most determined state cyber warfare initiative. They haven't done that because they want a way to get into systems even if it makes people less safe on the whole.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#66

Post by pyre »

Afforess wrote: post #20
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Agreed. I think the Snowden revelations have harmed the NSA's reputation to the point where most people on HN just assume NSA is a bond-level villain. The NSA serves a purpose, they are meant to be prepared offensively and defensively for the USA's security, which includes the internet. I have no problems with the NSA's purpose and would prefer they continue to exist and prepare against threats to the country. I do b…

> I do believe the NSA overstepped their mandate in domestic surveillance

They've been doing it longer than the Internet. The "Five Eyes" have existed for a while, so that they can have a legal loophole for domestic spying (e.g. "We can't spy on our citizens, so we'll just ask our allies to do it for us!"). To me this indicates that, while the stated purpose behind the organization may have merits, the execution of that purpose has been flawed for some time.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#67

Post by moe »

EpicEng wrote: post #37
moe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would ask the other way round. Why should this knowledge be hidden from the public?

The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. And yes, this is their job, and there's nothing wrong with it. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled, but to think that everyone should know everything is just naive and shows little understanding of how the real worl…

The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world.

Harder as in how?

That handwavy excuse gets thrown around a lot, I have yet to hear someone back it up with anything tangible.

Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled

Well, we tried with blind faith for a while. Turns out that didn't work all too well.

So, how do you propose we control something that we are not allowed to know anything about?

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#68

Post by mmagin »

Cakez0r wrote: post #54
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

I don't understand why there are so many comments saying that the NSA needs offensive digital capabilities. What valid reasons does the NSA have to ever be committing a cyber attack?

Possibly they're operating on the assumption that "cyber war" works like nuclear war and the most effective deterrent is the threat of retaliation.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#69

Post by elwin »

caycep wrote: post #55
fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

I agree. The DoD/NSA and other agencies should be developing these capabilities. IT's really the oversight and legal use of weapons against civilians that is the question

I suspect that "cyberweapons", like biological weapons, are almost impossible to use in a way that does not harm civilians. Their development is practically certain to lead to use against civilians in a way hard to reconcile with the ideas behind current international law. On the other hand, the idea of fighting a war without harming civilians is a 19th century notion unlikely to survive much longer.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#70

Post by pyre »

ed wrote: post #12
pdknsk wrote: post #8

There was a long interview with Snowden posted recently, which didn't make it to the frontpage. I guess because of Snowden penalty on HN and Snowden fatigue. Anyway, he kept repeating a point which is quite easy to understand for the public I think. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8859606 And the reality is when it comes to cyber conflicts [...], we have more to lose. We spend more on research and development th…

There's no reason to pick Offense vs. Defense any more than there is Social Security vs. Education. It's just a question of budgeting. Why wouldn't we invest in both?

In this situation, you can't pick both. The offensive measures we are discussing exist by breaking the defensive measures. The problem is breaking the defensive measures breaks not only their defensive measures, but ours as well. Hence Snowden's analogy to making a secret entrance to all bank vaults, even ours.

In this case, the idea is that the NSA will keep knowledge the secret door to the bank vault to themselves, and we'll all be secure. The problem with this is that other countries can inspect the bank vault and discover the secret door for themselves, or steal said knowledge from the NSA via espionage. Now our bank vault is just as exposed as theirs.

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