Live data from Hacker News

Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

latimes.com

11–20 of 62 posts

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#11

> There is no master plan. As much as I am an atheist, I still think no one can ever make that claim. He should have said, there is no evidence yet of a master plan, or there probably is no master plan. This same thing would apply to the existence of God. Unfortunately this logical fallacy (of prematurely concluding the nonexistence of something that theoretically can't be proved to not exist) beholds too many atheis…

[deleted]

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#12
post #8
post #3

I heard an interview where Dawkins said something like "if there is a God, He must have evolved." Maybe he was joking, but it didn't sound like it. Evolution is a biological process. It would have no bearing on a being who created space and time. Biologists should not presume to trump philosophy and theology, any more than preachers should dictate which biological theories are acceptable.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

I agree with the thrust of what you write. But this is wrong:

"Philosophy requires no 'givens', which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it."

In 1748, David Hume explained why this isn't right. Hume was a philosopher himself. The most important assumption that you must make in the natural sciences and in every brand of philosophy with which I'm familiar is causality. Check out http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/ for more.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#13
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

What exactly are the accomplishments of philosophy, aside from logic which is better studied by mathematicians and computer scientists?

Philosophy is sometimes considered the parent of the sciences--just about every pursuit of knowledge used to be philosophy. Once they were systematized, testable, and useful enough to stand on their own, they became sciences.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#14

> There is no master plan. As much as I am an atheist, I still think no one can ever make that claim. He should have said, there is no evidence yet of a master plan, or there probably is no master plan. This same thing would apply to the existence of God. Unfortunately this logical fallacy (of prematurely concluding the nonexistence of something that theoretically can't be proved to not exist) beholds too many atheis…

Nothing we believe about the outside world is unassailably justified by logic alone. Even the surest statements (that the sun will come up tomorrow, for example) are based on a fallible interpretation of the evidence available at the time. That's no reason to stop making statements--it turns out a preponderance of evidence is enough, generally. It just means some of your beliefs sometimes turn out to be wrong.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#15
post #8
post #3

I heard an interview where Dawkins said something like "if there is a God, He must have evolved." Maybe he was joking, but it didn't sound like it. Evolution is a biological process. It would have no bearing on a being who created space and time. Biologists should not presume to trump philosophy and theology, any more than preachers should dictate which biological theories are acceptable.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

>Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God

That's just not true. There's plenty of theology which you can enter into without a prior assumption of the existence of god. The most obvious example would be arguments _for_ the existence of God! But in general, most of theology can be appreciated while taking God's existence as a hypothetical. E.g. you can consider whether or not the existence of evil is compatible with the presence of an omnipotent and wholly good God. (And indeed, theologians spend a lot of time considering arguments _against_ God's existence based on the existence of evil, and these arguments clearly cannot presuppose his existence.)

By the way, have you ever read any theology?

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#16
post #8
post #3

I heard an interview where Dawkins said something like "if there is a God, He must have evolved." Maybe he was joking, but it didn't sound like it. Evolution is a biological process. It would have no bearing on a being who created space and time. Biologists should not presume to trump philosophy and theology, any more than preachers should dictate which biological theories are acceptable.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

I suspect you knew this, but many religions suggest we actually are living on the back of a gigantic turtle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_and_tortoises_in_popula...

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#17
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

What exactly are the accomplishments of philosophy, aside from logic which is better studied by mathematicians and computer scientists?

Philosophy has had many accomplishments, it's where the questions first get asked. In general it's where ideas get refined and understood enough to go out and be acted upon -- before it can be science it needs to through it's philosophical stages. Heidegger, an amazing existentialist, laid out a lot of problems that AI was going to have in the 50s. http://www.amazon.com/What-Computers-Still-Cant-Artificial/d...

The study of philosophy for most undergraduates taking a few classes can be thought of as the history of human thought.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#18
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are the accomplishments of philosophy, aside from logic which is better studied by mathematicians and computer scientists?

Philosophy is sometimes considered the parent of the sciences--just about every pursuit of knowledge used to be philosophy. Once they were systematized, testable, and useful enough to stand on their own, they became sciences.

That's like saying that the major accomplishment of religion is that it led to science.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#19
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to lump philosophy with theology. Philosophy requires no "givens", which is to say it is a valid field without requiring you to make any assumptions to partake in it. Theology, meanwhile, requires you first to assume the existence of God, and I'm one of the many many people who think that's a ridiculous beginning to a field of study. It's like if Nietzsche began his books by telling you his concepts an…

What exactly are the accomplishments of philosophy, aside from logic which is better studied by mathematicians and computer scientists?

I would say Questions are the greatest accomplishments of philosophy. There are many questions out there, the meaning of life, where we came from, what happens when we die. These are philosophical questions in origin.

Philosophy is the birth of inquiry. Science is the attempt to find the rational answer.

Re: Faith and Belief: Richard Dawkins evolves his arguments

#20
Can we keep these types of article of HN?

Other sites (such as reddit) became pretty useless with people submitting these (and other) articles and turning the whole site into an unpleasant experience.

Why not follow the same rules that we do when at work? Don't discuss politics or religion.

Post reply on HN