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New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

wsj.com

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Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#41

Post by Terr_ »

0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #39
nl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this is downvoted. You might not like it, but it is pretty well established legal doctrine that cross border search doesn't require a warrent.

I'm not sure you can claim that the movement of a physical object across a border is the same thing as a phone call. This becomes especially dangerous, once you start applying it to the internet, the average user has no way of knowing where a website they request is coming from and typing the same domain name will get a page from different locations depending on the circumstances. Am I really crossing a border by req…

Also, what happens if/when the NSA is forces your theoretically-only-domestic packets to take a small detour out of the country?

Or equally likely, they have an agreement with a foreign power that they each spy on one-another's citizens and share findings.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#42

Post by gcb0 »

0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #6

The key point of this is that the database of calls was collected without court oversight. So all the defense the government used with the NSA database being overseen by the FISA court doesn't apply, there was no court oversight of this program. It did not target specific individuals and there was no probable cause before the collection of this data. This is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment in my view. >The rig…

they were targeting foreigners outside of the usa. which by chance happened to be taking to an American, much to the spies surprise.

-- their lawyers.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#43

Post by Zigurd »

rayiner wrote: post #7
0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #6

The key point of this is that the database of calls was collected without court oversight. So all the defense the government used with the NSA database being overseen by the FISA court doesn't apply, there was no court oversight of this program. It did not target specific individuals and there was no probable cause before the collection of this data. This is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment in my view. >The rig…

The calls were cross-border: "The Justice Department secretly kept a database of Americans’ calls to foreign countries for more than a decade." The very first Congress, comprising many of the people who wrote the 4th amendment, passed a law allowing warrantless border searches. Since then, such searches have not been considered "unreasonable" under the theory that states have sovereign authority over what crosses the…

You are seriously saying that trans-border data flows are so analogous to the operation of custom houses that the 4th it completely meaningless just because someone is carrying my data across borders?

Funny how tariffs on imports were never applied to data. That analogy proved to be invalid. And yet, tariffs are what border searches were meant to enforce.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#45

Post by eutectic »

discardorama wrote: post #14
disposition2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reactions on the left are gems as well, especially since most of those quoted voted for retroactive immunity for the telecoms only a short time later [1]. 1 - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/110-2008/s20

In Washington, "left" and "right" are two sides of the same coin. The only difference is who they pay lipservice to: the left to the "poor", and the right to the "rich". Aside from this lipservice, they are both the same. Resolve to vote for someone not from the "(D)" or "(R)" side of the spectrum. It's time we got third parties in there.

Obama gave us meaningful healthcare reform, bringing insurance to millions of people, brought financial reform, and avoided the crippling austerity that European countries have imposed. It would be silly to say that a Republican president would have been 'the same' just because Democrats have a shitty record on civil liberties.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#46

Post by higherpurpose »

rhino369 wrote: post #30
moe wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all the defense the government used with the NSA database being overseen by the FISA court doesn't apply, there was no court oversight of this program. To be fair, calling FISA a "court" is a bit of an overstatement[1]. It's very unlikely that FISA oversight would have stopped or changed this in any way. Nonetheless it might be interesting to learn why they skipped the fig leaf altogether in this case. [1] http://…

It's comprised of legitimate federal judges. I'm not sure how much more you want.

Federal judges that never question NSA and automatically approve "3 month general warrants for mass collection".

Where's the "oversight" in that? That's why it was put there, no? To have oversight over NSA. How can you have any oversight when you just tell NSA to "collect everything".

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#47

Post by vidarh »

mullingitover wrote: post #22
discardorama wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Washington, "left" and "right" are two sides of the same coin. The only difference is who they pay lipservice to: the left to the "poor", and the right to the "rich". Aside from this lipservice, they are both the same. Resolve to vote for someone not from the "(D)" or "(R)" side of the spectrum. It's time we got third parties in there.

It's a nice sentiment but the two party system is dominant by design. It's a feature that always emerges from winner take all voting systems.

While that is often the case, it is not necessarily the case. Look at France for a counter-example.

The downside is that the French "solution" was/is for the parties to enter into extensive election alliances to prevent splitting their potential voters, so it's an ugly workaround for a broken system, and you still get horrible distortions but it still better represents the actual views of the electorate.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#48

Post by vidarh »

prawn wrote: post #35
mullingitover wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice sentiment but the two party system is dominant by design. It's a feature that always emerges from winner take all voting systems.

You just need two-party preferred voting so that you can vote first for a niche representative if you wish and preference a major party. In Australia, for example, it allows parties outside the two majors to have some influence, which I think is healthy.

Without proper proportional representation, a huge proportion people are still left with representation they actively disagree with.

Re: New Revelations U.S. Tracked Americans’ Calls for Over a Decade

#49

Post by CamperBob2 »

rhino369 wrote: post #30
moe wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all the defense the government used with the NSA database being overseen by the FISA court doesn't apply, there was no court oversight of this program. To be fair, calling FISA a "court" is a bit of an overstatement[1]. It's very unlikely that FISA oversight would have stopped or changed this in any way. Nonetheless it might be interesting to learn why they skipped the fig leaf altogether in this case. [1] http://…

It's comprised of legitimate federal judges. I'm not sure how much more you want.

"Legitimate" federal judges appointed by one judge (to rule them all, presumably.)
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