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What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

paulgraham.com

121–130 of 332 posts

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#121
post #11

Is it common for programmers to dislike debugging? I'm stunned. I never considered the possibility, it's always been something I enjoyed. I don't believe it impacts you either way in terms of capability but I imagine it impacts your desire to continue.

For me it's refactoring. I'm in a lull at work so I decide to refactor some JavaScript, while at it I notice the CSS is all messy and has redundant code so I take care of that, then it's the HTML, etc. I enjoy it until the panic starts creeping in that I'm fiddling too much and could break something.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#122
post #5

This dichotomy, and the realization that it can fuel smart people to use their abilities to do amazing things in the world, is what upsets me most about the startup ecosystem. I'm a programmer. Writing weather software doesn't seem like work to me. However, since going through a startup accelerator, I'm supposed to all these things that are very much "work" - and it gets me down. Things that are important, for sure,…

I knew some folks at Google who were very content to stay an engineer at the bottom of the org chart and watch the people they mentored get promoted above them, because they understood that what made them happy was writing code and solving tough technical problems, not managing people or playing political games. I always respected them for that. Same reason that Steve Wozniak was always far more of a hero to me than…

Somewhat-related book quote:

> Van Atta was no more than five years younger than Leo. Leo suppressed profound irritation—he wasn't this paper-shuffler's ninety-year-old retired Sunday school teacher, damn it. He was a working engineer, hands-on, and not afraid to get them dirty, either. His technical work was as close to perfection as his relentless conscientiousness could push it, his safety record spoke for itself... He let his anger go with a sigh. Wasn't it always so? He'd seen dozens of subordinates forge ahead, often men he'd trained himself. Yeah, and trust Van Atta to make it seem a weakness and not a point of pride.

--"Falling Free", by L.M. Bujold

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#123
post #110

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

Anytime I read one of those "just do what you're passionate about!" posts, or job postings that read like "we're looking for people who are passionate about [thing that literally no-one has ever been passionate about]" I try to think whether there's anything whatsoever that I'd enjoy (let alone stay passionate about) doing (at least) 40 hours a week, 49ish weeks a year. I haven't thought of anything yet. Left to my o…

> "we're looking for people who are passionate about [thing that literally no-one has ever been passionate about]"

Relevant satire clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz2-49q6DOI

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#124
post #117

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

> What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? In one of the economic courses I took, the Professor posed this very question. Apparently Karl Marx had also opined along these lines - how would a society incentivize someone who only likes to build sand castles ? He can't monetize the sandcastle because the waves wash them out, so he just builds another one & another one & so on. Sometimes I think programming i…

On the incentives point, it seems to me that 'we' as a society focus far too much on money and expect it to paper over the gaps that employment inevitably causes.

Finish after your children leave school? Money -> childcare. Can't get time off to cook for yourself more? Money -> restaurant meals.

Small stuff. Office located in a stupid place like downtown, forcing _everyone_ into a silly commute. Lack of parking spaces.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#125
post #92
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps your two camps are just not a very good representation of how programmers actually think?

Some Joe Kraus wisdom i picked up is to always be suspicious of anyone who divides the world into two groups.

That's why I used the word "stereotyped" at the beginning. And why I said it's possible to have both ways (and multiple ways) of looking at things -- and indeed the best programmers do have both.

I do think that most people have an natural disposition toward one way of thinking, and trying the "opposite" way of thinking is a great way to improve.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#126
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like with mathematicians, you should just be able to explain with limits. Assuming the limit exists without actually proving the sequence converges is going to produce total junk. Jaynes spent a good portion of Probability Theory illustrating this.

I'm just talking about using the concept of limits as a teaching tool, not assuming a particular limit exists.

Yes, this is why the mathematicians are pulling their hair out! You can't just drop terms when you feel like it.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#127
post #42
post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

As (failed) physics major, it sounds so strange to hear someone claim to be good at math but not physics. To me physics is 98% math. It's a few empirical facts from experiments and then bucketloads of math.

I was a math + physics double major in college, plus I was also deeply into programming, electronics, and music.

In my view, the starting point for physics is a deep curiosity about how things work. But I'm not sure that aspect of it is ever taught. Rather, it's assumed that good physics students arrive at college, having developed that instinct on their own as kids -- taking things apart, breaking things, asking questions, maybe having curious parents.

Instead, the emphasis in teaching physics is almost purely on the math. Certainly, what defines physics as a unique discipline is the interest in studying problems that lend themselves to mathematical analysis. Solving the textbook problems involves identifying the equations corresponding to the wording of the problem, then solving the equations. That's a skill, but it's not really physics.

I got through my physics courses on the strength of my math skills, but was extremely fortunate to have picked up the empirical half of physics on my own, through my hobbies, and from the curiosity about nature that my parents encouraged. But if someone lacks that background, I could see them being good at math, and maybe getting a good way through school physics, but never really getting physics as an end unto itself.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#128
post #125
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Joe Kraus wisdom i picked up is to always be suspicious of anyone who divides the world into two groups.

That's why I used the word "stereotyped" at the beginning. And why I said it's possible to have both ways (and multiple ways) of looking at things -- and indeed the best programmers do have both. I do think that most people have an natural disposition toward one way of thinking, and trying the "opposite" way of thinking is a great way to improve.

You could console yourself in the knowledge that, if one is to divide the world at all, one must first divide it in two. The really trick is to keep dividing, and not get stuck at the first thought you have.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#129
post #128
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I used the word "stereotyped" at the beginning. And why I said it's possible to have both ways (and multiple ways) of looking at things -- and indeed the best programmers do have both. I do think that most people have an natural disposition toward one way of thinking, and trying the "opposite" way of thinking is a great way to improve.

You could console yourself in the knowledge that, if one is to divide the world at all, one must first divide it in two. The really trick is to keep dividing, and not get stuck at the first thought you have.

I think it would be more helpful if you actually said what you think, rather than making vague objections to something I didn't say. It would make for a much better conversation.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems I literally did the opposite of this. I went so far as to make deals with my teachers that if I got an A on every test, I wouldn't have to do any work outside of class. Maybe I figured it to be a challenge, maybe I was plain lazy. Whatever it was, that didn't pre…

i hear you, but clever deal anyways. my laziness in high school definitely didn't prepare me for college. my high school geometry teacher started grading our homework after she found out i wasn't doing it, even though i was acing the tests. i still didn't do the homework, banking on the idea i'd get an A anyway. she changed the grading to make homework worth just enough to give me an A-. =\ short term thinking...

I owe my career to not doing math homeworks. School math wasn't something I cared about, but I wanted to make games so I learned programming instead of doing math problems. Ended up catching up with the math through gamedev anyway - it was very easy to learn once I cared about it.

In the end I had mediocre math grades throughout school, but learned a ton of skills I now use to create stuff.

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