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What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

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Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#311
post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about gi…

The men are sexualized too. Just not in the hyper masculine sense.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#312
post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

Well that, and his comic book store sucks.

The store I go to has an entire rack/shelf/section for kids. On that rack is MLP, Lego, Minecraft, and a lot of other stuff. Options exist, that store didn't have them available and was probably just hyperfocused on what has traditionally sold, which is a shame because they lose the chance to pick up a new audience. If more stores carried it, the hope is more girls would buy them, and more of those comics would exist, the same way there are 8 parallel running Batman series all with women drawn to to appeal to the instinctual desires of young men.

Side note: The author also seems to have a perception issues that is very telling in his expectations about comics, and fails to realize there are also a lot more in those comics that are reasons you wouldn't want your seven year old reading them beyond the way women are depicted (which is a point I agree with, I think its ridiculous too, and I don't buy those comics). There are a lot of themes in comics that are made for more mature audiences, the writer just sounds kind of ignorant of the media. He thinks "comics are for kids" for example. No, Archie comics are for kids. Comics haven't "been for kids" since the Comic Authority was still prevalent, he's at least a decade or two out of touch. It's almost entirely geared towards teens and young adults, you know, the ones with disposable income who drop $5 per comic. The lack of options sucks, but like most modern retail industries, the industry is optimized to stock/create and churn out what sells the most. Kids under 10 don't buy nearly as many comics as the 17-50 male who will walk out with 5-30 comics sometimes after pay day.

It's kind of like the parent that complains about the prevalence M rated games because video games are for kids. That medium changed a lot since they were playing Nintendo, or video games first came out and mainly only appealed to kids. Those kids grew up, and they still play video games/read comics, but they spend a lot more on them, but want more sex/violence/darker themes, so the market adapted because they want money. The problem is your comic book shop doesn't even stock the equivalent of a Nintendo games section for the younger audience. He's worried about his daughter, but he probably let his kid walk out with comics that are on the level of GTA, just because it was "Batman".

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something. It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks. I get that they are comics, but a story…

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

Two things:

1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense.

2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't the norm.

Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

[1] http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful…

Two things: 1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense. 2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be suc…

Again, I hate to respond in image macros, but the idea that women don't find men like Batman or Spider Man attractive is bullshit.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/258/9/6/tumblr_mtg09c...

(what do you know, the comic that image mocks was written by a guy...)

I'm sorry, but things like the "Hawkeye initiative" are just plain stupid for completely overlooking the differences between male and female sexuality. Look at the romance novel covers above and try to tell me they wouldn't look absolutely ridiculous with the genders swapped. It reminds me of sites like "Escher Girls", a collection of "boobs and butt" poses in art that the bloggers think are "anatomically impossible" and "disturbing", despite being absolutely trivial for men and women to perform alike.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

http://pirate-cashoo.tumblr.com/post/26538269244

https://twitter.com/kinucakes/status/552353978378633218

And judging by the number of female comic book character cosplayers, I think it's safe to say that quite a few women "want to be" these characters, sexualized or not, as well. Women have created strong, sexualized, camp characters like Bayonetta explicitly as female power fantasies, but that never stops a certain band of puritanical American feminists from branding them as "offensive" symbols of the patriarchy.

http://platinumgames.com/2009/04/17/designing-bayonetta/

http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/bayonetta/1013849p1.html

http://platinumgames.com/2014/06/27/character-design-pt-1-ba...

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#315
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why killing needs to be presented as a game? You want to teach children about life and death? Get then to a slaughterhouse. No? Why not? It's just teaching them about life and death...

Well, considering many children learn to kill and dress game early in life; I don't see a problem with that. Depends on the child and the parent. But I appreciate you trying to show my point is invalid by trying to get me to disagree with a completely different example.

> many children learn to kill and dress game early in life

Can you give some examples? I'm genuinely curious about the first, "learn to kill", type of games.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#316
post #280
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I can see how that kind of dissonance would then apply when thinking about women and technology.

Consider the number of replies on HN and other sources that are essentially "Well I don't see it..." or "Not at my office..." rather than taking women at their word for their own experience.

The problem is that sometimes when sexism is claimed - such as at github - it turns out not to be sexism at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but when you have false positives like this, it makes you want to see some evidence.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just trample on people's rights because you disagree with them. Nor say "it's OK that it exists, it just can't be popular."

How is that trampling on anyones rights? Nobody has the right to be popular...

Yes, yes, they do.

Otherwise, I'd like to have Justin Beiber locked up in jail tomorrow. along with every other insipid pop artist and creators of other things I don't like.

It's okay not to like things, its not okay to force people to stop doing things you don't like or keep those things from being popular because you have value differences. You're effectively using the same argument of people against same sex marriage. "This thing offends me and hurts my feelings/values, so others should be stopped from doing it." I like how the attempt at being progressive has come full circle to one of intolerance.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#318
post #195

I've never understood Americans' obsession with superhero comics. When I was a kid I was reading Asterix[1], Gaston Lagaffe[2], Spirou et Fantasio[3], Lucky Luke[4], Prince Valiant[5], The Phantom[6] and similar stuff. Of course, I've read Superman, Batman and Spiderman also but at least I've had a choice. I can't understand why they don't exist in US, why are the only comic books Americans know superhero comics? [1]…

Many of the non-superhero comic books in the U.S. end up being adult themed for various reasons. Even many notable French artists are only known here for their work in magazines like Heavy Metal. One I grew up with (that I probably shouldn't have had as a child) was the Conan the Barbarian comics. Definitely not a superhero title, and definitely skewed towards the adult demographic. Asterix has tried to penetrate the…

I don't know about any previous attempts but Cinebook are working on Spirou et Fantasio in English - they're still ongoing but they're not in the original order (the 7 so far are 5 80s Tome & Janry titles followed by two Franquin 50s titles) so who knows how many they plan to do. http://www.cinebook.co.uk/index.php?cPath=182

It's a British English translation but I think any UK/US differences will be fairly small compared to the cultural differences from the original source era. I have books 2 and 5 and to be honest the racial stereotypes in book #2, from 1987, are more troubling than anything I remember in book #5, from 1952!

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#319
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with these dialogues. Often right-leaning types see them as ways to avoid having to take any responsibility or action for anything by claiming the real issues are things that are the neutral mechanics of an impersonal market. There, fixed.

Except we've had a history of censorship and its been historically horrible. This is just a new Comics Code Authority Code. So yeah, we tried the liberal censorship (protect the $minority, $gender, $children) approach and its a massive failure because TOP DOWN CONTROL OF CULTURE IS HARMFUL. Instead lower barriers, give people choice, don't guilt them, open markets, etc. Let speech and art flourish. Political correctn…

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard the Comics Code Authority called "liberal".

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#320
post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

That's the problem with these dialogues. Often left-leaning types see them as justification for censorship and shaming when the real issue is market penetration and audience. I can walk my son through the girly section of 'toys r us' and see nothing but men represented as effeminate "prince" types who's only main motivation in life is finding a princess. The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that, bein…

I seem to have missed the suggestion of censorship. Or did you bring that up for some reason?
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