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Interview: Lennart Poettering

linuxvoice.com

31–40 of 91 posts

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#31
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how an opinion like this: "...to make it clear, I think Upstart actually has its benefits. The source code is very, very nice, and it’s very simple, but I think it’s too simple. It doesn’t have this engine that can figure out what the computer is supposed to be doing." is callous and myopic?

> how an opinion [...] is callous and myopic? There have been hundreds of thousands of words written on how simple utilities can form the basis of supportable, complex systems and still retain the ability to be comprehensible. He has dismissed all that as beneath consideration, and he has the One True Vision™ on how Unix should be architected. Don't get me wrong, hubris and self-righteousness have given us great thin…

He has dismissed all that as beneath consideration, and he has the One True Vision™ on how Unix should be architected.

I don't see him passing a value judgement on how it should be done, just dismissing a particular criticism as poorly founded. If you look at the difference between the Unix and Linux development models, there is a point. There are a lot of properties to Unix so it's a bad argument to say "not Unixy enough" when you really mean something more along the lines of "components take on too many responsibilities at once and are too tightly coupled."

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#32

Lennart seems to harbor this very strange belief that developing your software in one repository makes you Unix-like, and that this alone is sufficient entirely. So by this logic, a standalone Unix kernel is not Unix-like, but a fully integrated DOS clone, is. In addition: Then we convinced the Fedora Technical Committee to adopt it, and then Red Hat internal management accepted it for RHEL, and we managed to convinc…

"So there was, in fact, a PR campaign." Er, how do you think the Systemd developers convinced these technical teams to use Systemd? With bribes? Sexual favours? Or perhaps, you know, using the software itself? It's funny. The lead developers of Arch Linux, OpenSUSE, Fedora, Mageia, Debian etc. etc. etc. have all chosen to use Systemd. Yet for some reason, many commentators assume these people -- distro technical lead…

Distros mostly made the switch because,

1 Redhat pushed systemd into Rhel7 2 Crucial system parts were pr'd into hard dependencies on systemd 3 It's base idea and vision which is currently replaced with broader ones was good evolution. (better init system with woos) 4 technically most of these woos are only implemented with it

I am not trying to say systemd does not have it's merits. It has. It is trying hard to bring what it promises on the table. Unfortunately these promises mostly comes with traps like vendor lock-in and forced technicalities on other software like kernel.

It tries to be everything in a single pack with no space for other contenders.

These may be thought as well refuted ideas But I believe systemd cabal has the ability to refute with half assed realities. Like "It is not monolitic. it is modular." Reality it has compile time modularity like it is 70's.Also people report that modularity is oversold.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So there was, in fact, a PR campaign." Er, how do you think the Systemd developers convinced these technical teams to use Systemd? With bribes? Sexual favours? Or perhaps, you know, using the software itself? It's funny. The lead developers of Arch Linux, OpenSUSE, Fedora, Mageia, Debian etc. etc. etc. have all chosen to use Systemd. Yet for some reason, many commentators assume these people -- distro technical lead…

The distro developers likely all 'chose' systemd because they were forced to to continue using GNOME, which is the experience people expect as end-users on Linux.

Arch was one of the first to switch and while a decent number use gnome I sincerely doubt they made the choice because of gnome. Arch has a long history of alternative WM/DE It's not likely any individual one could force their hand on an architecture change like systemd.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#34
post #23

"if you do an init system but still invoke all the shell scripts and all the other things needed to bring up the system, you’ve only solved part of the problem." That's exactly what I think is wrong with systemd. If a script bring a speed issue on start up, it should fixed by optimizing the script, use/create another script language with parallelism and higher pref, or even turn it into a compiled program. This is no…

> In fact the only purpose of an init system is to start executables in a defined order, not more.

That's where the disagreement lies. I see the purpose of an init system as being to transition the machine from one state to another. Sometimes this means starting executables. Sometimes it means stopping them. Sometimes it involves more complicated tasks.

> This is going to be like X, a huge pile of unmaintainable code

That is exactly my opinion of the shell scripts that previously handled networking.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#35

Lennart seems to harbor this very strange belief that developing your software in one repository makes you Unix-like, and that this alone is sufficient entirely. So by this logic, a standalone Unix kernel is not Unix-like, but a fully integrated DOS clone, is. In addition: Then we convinced the Fedora Technical Committee to adopt it, and then Red Hat internal management accepted it for RHEL, and we managed to convinc…

Who gives a shit about Unix like or not. Unix is dead, Linux is the new standard. Lennart is solving a very important problem. If you don't like it write your own or don't use it. But just STFU.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So there was, in fact, a PR campaign." Er, how do you think the Systemd developers convinced these technical teams to use Systemd? With bribes? Sexual favours? Or perhaps, you know, using the software itself? It's funny. The lead developers of Arch Linux, OpenSUSE, Fedora, Mageia, Debian etc. etc. etc. have all chosen to use Systemd. Yet for some reason, many commentators assume these people -- distro technical lead…

Distros mostly made the switch because, 1 Redhat pushed systemd into Rhel7 2 Crucial system parts were pr'd into hard dependencies on systemd 3 It's base idea and vision which is currently replaced with broader ones was good evolution. (better init system with woos) 4 technically most of these woos are only implemented with it I am not trying to say systemd does not have it's merits. It has. It is trying hard to brin…

RHEL actually was one of the later distros to adopt systemd, so that line of reasoning doesn't make much sense.

> Crucial system parts were pr'd into hard dependencies on systemd

Can you tell which crucial system parts you mean? The thing with udev was that it's hard/impossible to build without systemd, however there is no dependency on it. The other thing that is brought up in this context is gnome 3, but that was already covered in the interview.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#37
post #29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's talking about UNIX , not Linux, and he's 100% right. Look at the BSDs some time, or the Solaris forks. The disconnect between the Linux kernel and basic userland has been a criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years. It's part of the reason why BSD has a few forks and Linux has hundreds of distributions.

I'm very well aware of the difference of Unix and Linux. I even smiled slighty as he also could just have claimed Linux to not be Unix and that would have been undisputable. I actually don't know what you mean with "criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years" in regards to the Linux kernel and the userland. I know of Linus' disregard of POSIX where it's crappy or doesn't make any sense anymore in his opinion but tha…

> I actually don't know what you mean with "criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years" in regards to the Linux kernel and the userland.

There's a joke from the 90's that goes something like "FreeBSD is what you get when Unix hackers write a Unix clone for the PC. Linux is what you get when PC hackers write a Unix clone for the PC." From the point of view of BSD or proprietary Unix fans, the early Linux distros were just throwing together a haphazard collection of poorly tested components.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#38
post #29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's talking about UNIX , not Linux, and he's 100% right. Look at the BSDs some time, or the Solaris forks. The disconnect between the Linux kernel and basic userland has been a criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years. It's part of the reason why BSD has a few forks and Linux has hundreds of distributions.

I'm very well aware of the difference of Unix and Linux. I even smiled slighty as he also could just have claimed Linux to not be Unix and that would have been undisputable. I actually don't know what you mean with "criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years" in regards to the Linux kernel and the userland. I know of Linus' disregard of POSIX where it's crappy or doesn't make any sense anymore in his opinion but tha…

I actually don't know what you mean with "criticism of UNIX traditionalists for years"

"of" meaning "belonging to" not "directed at." Confused me for a bit too.

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#39
post #6
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how an opinion like this: "...to make it clear, I think Upstart actually has its benefits. The source code is very, very nice, and it’s very simple, but I think it’s too simple. It doesn’t have this engine that can figure out what the computer is supposed to be doing." is callous and myopic?

I find myself wondering why the init is supposed to figure out what the computer is to be doing. That kind of "automagical" behavior is what drove me bonkers when trying to use Windows for more than a games console...

I believe it's not about between magical in the general case, but about how you specify dependencies between services, an area where systemd and upstart work differently.

See the 'On Upstart' section here [1].

1: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html

Re: Interview: Lennart Poettering

#40
> So we slowly started doing stuff that all the other Linux distros did, and implemented that in simple C code that was fast and parallelised.

That's part of my issue with systemd: replacing safe (-r) shell scripts with C. Sure, it's fast, but I trust C about as far as I can throw it (and yes, I realise that the Linux kernel is written in C: it constantly has local root exploits, which proves my point). I really wish that projects like systemd were written in something of like Ocaml, Go, Rust, Common Lisp—anything fast enough but safer.

Also, it probably doesn't help Lennart that he looks like the Rolfe Gruber in the Sound of Music…

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