What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me • Hacker News Board

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#201

Post by LanceH » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:13 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #105

Heyr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say is like a nice idea, but you have to remember that this is a business. These kinds of comics line the shelves, because they're the ones that sell. Of course, it could very well be that if we had more comics that were more moderate they would sell also, but nobody's willing to take the risk. On top of that, you also require an author that is interested in that - you can't just suck this stuff out of a pen…

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbotherin…

It is not the males pushing people away from comics. It's exactly the opposite. This is a group engaged in an activity which has long been looked down upon. Reading comics was seen as merely childish. Men embraced it, get called basement dwellers and just go on enjoying the things they enjoy. Then someone sees they are having a good time in spite of decades of being called childish and now suddenly they are sexist for excluding others. These were commonly the guys getting excluded and the comic book store has been their refuge.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#202

Post by stefantalpalaru » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #195

perakojotgenije wrote: post #81

I've never understood Americans' obsession with superhero comics. When I was a kid I was reading Asterix[1], Gaston Lagaffe[2], Spirou et Fantasio[3], Lucky Luke[4], Prince Valiant[5], The Phantom[6] and similar stuff. Of course, I've read Superman, Batman and Spiderman also but at least I've had a choice. I can't understand why they don't exist in US, why are the only comic books Americans know superhero comics? [1]…

Many of the non-superhero comic books in the U.S. end up being adult themed for various reasons. Even many notable French artists are only known here for their work in magazines like Heavy Metal. One I grew up with (that I probably shouldn't have had as a child) was the Conan the Barbarian comics. Definitely not a superhero title, and definitely skewed towards the adult demographic. Asterix has tried to penetrate the…

> Even many notable French artists are only known here for their work in magazines like Heavy Metal.

It's not the artist, it's the environment. Moebius did amazing and innovative comics for the French and Belgian markets. Guess what he did once arrived in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Giraud#Marvel_Comics

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#203

Post by agentultra » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

In Toronto and surrounding cities (Canada) things are getting better with comic stores catering to independent publishers and artists (e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beguiling).

Many local independent bookstores also contain a "graphic novel" section that tend to carry independent, literate examples of the medium.

I guess if you haven't been interested in comics for some time it can be disorienting to walk into any shop without doing a little research first.

Go indie! You'll do much better. One series I'm looking forward to getting my kids into is Mouseguard. But I also have comics about the fantastic women pioneers in science, the manhattan project, fairy tales, and so on.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#204

Post by vertex-four » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #166

Why comics? There are plenty of good books (even with pictures) for the girls of that age. Comics were never supposed to be educational or have any non-entertainment value and primary tarted at hormones soaked male teens. Take her to the books store instead. You don't complain that nobody does piano recital during pop concerts -- either go there or not. Actually, I find annoying the trend of complaining about anythin…

> Comics were never supposed to be educational or have any non-entertainment value and primary tarted at hormones soaked male teens.

In the USA, perhaps. There is literally nothing about the medium - panes of images, some with dialogue or narrative, which when put together portray a story - that makes it targeted towards males. If I tried to explain comics to people, there's nothing in the explanation that makes it male-only.

And in fact, there's plenty of people writing family-friendly and female-targeted comic books. They're just distributed through the Internet these days, and funded through advertising and merchandise. There's plenty of people reading them, along with manga and similar media.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#205

Post by barryfandango » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:19 PM UTC

appleflaxen wrote: post #147

po wrote: post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

How can the market fix this? If there is not enough demand, then publishers aren't going to create these titles.

The titles already exist. The excellent clerk at my local comic store made me a long list of american and international series for my daughter to check out and I've been very impressed. Most of them have to be ordered though, and none are prominently displayed.

So it isn't so much that the titles aren't being created, but I think you're right that the demand will affect what is visible on store shelves.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#206

Post by alphadevx » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #171

alphadevx wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also there is Image, Oni Press and Vertigo.

Image doesn't really work for daughters. http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/savage-dragon/18-1.jpg I saw that cover in a comic store in my 20s, and it made me do a "what am I doing with my life?" reaction.

Well, that's something of an edge case given that Erik Larsen originally came from DC & Marvel, so he has that over-the-top exaggerated anatomy style, but yeah it's indefensible.

Most of the newer Image stuff is really mature and has some fantastic female role models, see for example Lazarus, Shutter, or Copperhead, all have strong female leads.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#207

Post by mcphage » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

kendallpark wrote: post #157

mcphage wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbotherin…

I agree. Take for example the new Ms. Marvel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 She's a Pakistani superhero that dresses modestly AND her comics sell. Why? Because they're well-written. But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.

> But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.

Aargh, you're reminding me that I really need to get back into reading that series. When I could buy comics from inside the Comixology app, it was really easy to keep up, and I haven't read any new comics since they pulled that out.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#208

Post by unreal37 » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #201

mcphage wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbotherin…

It is not the males pushing people away from comics. It's exactly the opposite. This is a group engaged in an activity which has long been looked down upon. Reading comics was seen as merely childish. Men embraced it, get called basement dwellers and just go on enjoying the things they enjoy. Then someone sees they are having a good time in spite of decades of being called childish and now suddenly they are sexist fo…

That's an interesting point that shouldn't be lost in the discussion. Men who read comics have long been ridiculed by the mainstream. Even the Big Bang Theory, which inspired the blog authors' trip to the comic store, plays to that stereotype of it being an activity for the socially inept. And now, 20 years later, the industry doesn't serve any other market and is being criticized for it. Interesting.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#209

Post by ForestC » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

zyxley wrote: post #182

rprospero wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly how you feel. For the past year, my main gaming rig has been on another continent and I've been making do with what I could play on a cruddy little netbook running Linux. It's probably been my best year of gaming ever. I've been an old west robot prospector. I've seen a man have sex with a giant goldfish. I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat. I've consoled a grieving child. After all that was done,…

> I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat. ...What game is that?

I'm interested in the games he listed as well. I know the first one (robot prospector) is probably SteamWorld Dig. Not certain about the others.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#210

Post by scott_s » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #186

tsmarsh wrote: post #13

I had a similar 'revelation' with violence in video games. I knew a lot of games were violent, but it wasn't until I found my 2 year old son watching me murder human after human with a crossbow in Tomb Raider that I 'got it'. It has ruined AAA video games for me. I solved the problem by buying a Wii U. I'm not sure why that's better. I have killed hundreds of pikmin, squashed hundreds of goomba and worst of all, used…

I could be wrong but it seems you have issues with the idea of games for adults and games for kids. The fact that a game is unsuitable for your child to play, or even watch you play, prevents you from enjoying certain games seems just wrong. Did you stop watching movies rated PG-13 or higher as well? And why is it wrong for young children to understand the concept of life and death? I mean, an overly gory game is one…

You missed his point. Once he saw what he was doing from his child's perspective, he was uncomfortable with it. Note that this is distinct from being uncomfortable with his child seeing what he is doing.

I had a similar reaction after not playing many games during grad school, which was 2003 - 2010. After graduating, I picked up a PS3. Some games it wasn't too much of an issue (such as Mass Effect), but in others, it was startling (such as Bioshock Infinite).