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What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

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Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#21

Post by lsiebert »

xienze wrote: post #18
lsiebert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah dude.I get what you are saying, but if that is the case, why are male villians often grotesque, but female villians always (or almost anyway) just as sexy as female heros? Heros are drawn for you to identify with as a power fantasy. The female characters aren't about who you want to be. It's about what you want to see. That's why superman gets to be fully dressed, whereas super girl shows her belly and wears a sk…

What are your feelings on romance novel covers?

I think http://shopbuy.org/static/category/original/romance-novels/E... sums my feelings up nicely.

Romance Covers are, however, an entirely different topic.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#22

Post by everyone »

I dont see this as an issue. Putting it very bluntly. Comics are (in general) of low quality (in terms of writing, ideas* ), aimed (in general) at a specific creepy contingent of society composed of teenage boys or men who still act like teenage boys. So, who cares about them!? Contemporary media, games, tv shows, films, music, are filled with and largely composed of terrible dross. If you're discerning that involves ignoring 99% of media and almost completely ignoring comics.

*Obviously there are some good comics which I've read (Akira is a good example) but, in my experience, the soaring heights of the greatest writing in comics would be seen as mediocre in another domain.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#23

Post by xienze »

tiquortoo wrote: post #11

If the demographics swing at the edges of the market the center will respond. Particularly if there is social pressure to do so. This is not a malicious endeavor it is a market response and we frankly don't have to be so hand-wringy about it.

I agree 100%. I don't understand why everything has to be over-analyzed to death. Good grief, we're talking about comic books.

I'd love to hear this guy write about taking his daughter to a shop selling uncensored Japanese Manga. "Maaaaybe our comics aren't so bad after all."

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#24

Post by [deleted] »

po wrote: post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

[deleted]

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#25

Post by xienze »

lsiebert wrote: post #21
xienze wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your feelings on romance novel covers?

I think http://shopbuy.org/static/category/original/romance-novels/E... sums my feelings up nicely. Romance Covers are, however, an entirely different topic.

I see them as the other side of the coin. Comic books are targeted towards men and sexualize women, romance novels are targeted towards women and sexualize men. Sex sells.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#26

Post by pdpi »

xienze wrote: post #16
pdpi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The curves themselves are excessive, but look at the outfits and your argument comes tumbling down. Male superheroes are rarely portrayed in a sexually suggestive manner. Female superheroes see physically impossible cleavage and tons of skin as par for the course. The exaggerated features make male superheroes look powerful, while female superheroes look like playboy bunnies. It's like you're supposed to identify wit…

What do you really expect? Comic books are overwhelmingly read by men. Men who generally -- and don't downvote me, you know it's true -- don't get much female attention. Of course the authors are going to spice them up a bit for their intended demographic. Men have comic books, women have romance novels (and don't tell me the covers for those books aren't intended to sexualize men and titillate their audience). It's…

I wasn't arguing that sex doesn't sell both ways. Was just disabusing the OP of his notion that comics are not highly sexualised.

Still, there's plenty of novels for all sorts of audiences. Both the titillating kind (swing both ways), and otherwise. It's just a shame that the superhero comic format, which does appeal to a wider audience than just male teenagers, caters almost exclusively to that one group.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#27

Post by Heyr »

po wrote: post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

What you say is like a nice idea, but you have to remember that this is a business. These kinds of comics line the shelves, because they're the ones that sell. Of course, it could very well be that if we had more comics that were more moderate they would sell also, but nobody's willing to take the risk. On top of that, you also require an author that is interested in that - you can't just suck this stuff out of a pen to make money (although often this does happen, they tend to end up being less interesting though).

If the comic is printed out then somebody has to buy it. If the comics aren't bought enough then it just won't work. It doesn't matter whether our ideal society would have us have more moderate comics or not, because it seems that in reality that's not the case. Of course, you can always prove me wrong (and the comic industry) by creating your own comic that does adhere to the criteria you enjoy. You would probably be rather successful if people truly wanted it, because it seems like there is no competition for them. But it seems unlikely.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#28

Post by facepalm »

Except that it's not true that no comics with "normal" female heroines exist. We had Yoko Tsuno when we were kids, for example. The most recent comics I bought were Buffy and Fray. You don't have to buy cheesy sex comics - I don't.

That lots of men enjoy comics with exaggerated sex symbols has no bearing on the offering for the female target democratic.

Same goes for books and movies and so on btw.

In the same vein, it doesn't bother me as a man that there are thousands of women's magazines, and only very few men's magazines. I just don't care - nobody is forcing me to buy them, after all. In fact there are zillions of products in the world I don't care for, and that doesn't make me feel discriminated against.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#29

Post by vidarh »

xienze wrote: post #16
pdpi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The curves themselves are excessive, but look at the outfits and your argument comes tumbling down. Male superheroes are rarely portrayed in a sexually suggestive manner. Female superheroes see physically impossible cleavage and tons of skin as par for the course. The exaggerated features make male superheroes look powerful, while female superheroes look like playboy bunnies. It's like you're supposed to identify wit…

What do you really expect? Comic books are overwhelmingly read by men. Men who generally -- and don't downvote me, you know it's true -- don't get much female attention. Of course the authors are going to spice them up a bit for their intended demographic. Men have comic books, women have romance novels (and don't tell me the covers for those books aren't intended to sexualize men and titillate their audience). It's…

It's not that simple. This is a cultural issue. Go outside the US and see what comics sell.

The best selling comic in Norway for decades was Donald Duck.

These days the most popular comics in Norway are Pondus - a comedy series about a pub landlord (previously bus driver) and his friend who sells music (after previously spending years on the dole) - and Nemi, a series about a 20-something female goth, written by a woman. While Donald Duck still sells fairly well.

The best selling French-language comic is usually Spirou, a periodical that features mostly comics targeted at children.

You'll find country after country where the most popular comics have little to no sexualized content.

Now, I enjoy US superhero comics too, but as I noted elsewhere: There's been a drastic change in them to in the last 20 years or so. They used to target boys, not men. And they used to be a lot more innocent.

Sure, they probably target their core audience, but the thing to keep in mind, and that it seems like Marvel at least may be waking up to: Maybe this focus on "men who don't get much female attention" is why the comic audience in the US is so tiny compared to the comic reading audiences in Europe or Japan for example?

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#30

Post by savanaly »

It's kind of a shame for the minority of women or men who prefer to see women depicted realistically in the comics they read. But that contingent is small enough that I fear it just isn't viable to serve them. The comics market has been around awhile and is fiercely competitive, so I think we can be confident it is delivering the efficient solution as it stands. That said, gradually shifting the tastes of everyone around you by writing countless articles and making speeches at conventions etc. is legitimate if you feel that strongly about it, so more power to them I guess.
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