A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You • Hacker News Board

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#141

Post by schoen » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 2:58 PM UTC

dkbrk wrote: post #91

As far as I can tell, the best tool for localisation almost nobody is using is http://www.grammaticalframework.org/ . Licensing is a mix of GPL, BSD and MIT pieces. It's a high-level functional programming language with a dependent type system specialised for operating on language ASTs. It's resource library, to quote "covers the morphology and basic syntax of currently 29 languages: Afrikaans, Bulgarian, Catalan, Ch…

That sounds like a great technical approach, although it can't necessarily remove the problem of idiomaticity that the article mentions (with the example of "I didn't search any directories"). Probably better examples are possible, in any case where the most idiomatic way to express something isn't a literal translation of that thing from other languages. Maybe like

English "I don't care"

Portuguese "tanto faz" (literally 'so much does')

German "[das] ist mir egal" (literally '[it] is equal for me')

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#142

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 2:58 PM UTC

gjm11 wrote: post #135

TeMPOraL wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why nobody seems to put information like "warning: this phone's UI in is total and utter crap". Anyway, what you wrote is exactly why I stick to using all software and webservices - OS, text editors, Facebook, et al. - in en_US instead of my native pl_PL. Because translations are always crappy - even for big players. Lack of context is the key here - translated text often feels out of place, because ther…

I'm pretty sure general opinion among everyone other than Jehovah's Witnesses is that their bible translation is not good, and that the same-word rule is one of the reasons why. And I really don't see how having a similar rule for translations of text in software would eliminate most "context missing" problems. It seems what it would actually do is stop translators even guessing those missing contexts.

> And I really don't see how having a similar rule for translations of text in software would eliminate most "context missing" problems. It seems what it would actually do is stop translators even guessing those missing contexts.

Well, because for one translations would at least be consistent. In software words have often specific meaning related to the application itself. You're not free to translate the word "like" on Facebook however you like because it has its own, specific meaning that is different from the dictionary one. The same applies to things like tools in Photoshop, etc. In general, wrong use of synonyms for things that have application-specific meaning is one of the most common problems with translations I see (and the same happens in official movie translations).

When you don't have (or can't be bothered to get) context, this is the least you can do to play safe.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#143

Post by ygra » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:01 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #133

raverbashing wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know why nobody seems to put information like "warning: this phone's UI in is total and utter crap". This is what makes me use SW and equipment only in English. Translations are pretty much useless (and of course, Googling the English error messages usually gives the best results)

It makes sense if not all of your target demographic, or at least a large part, cannot read English on the level neccesary to use your tool. However, for a lot of modern tools that isn't the case. Often a translated tool is an order of magnitude less usable because of broken translations and inability to Google things. It's also infurating that lots of tools look at your Windows location when deciding your language.…

I think Gettext on Windows still uses the locale to determine UI language, despite those two things being completely separate concepts.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#144

Post by MichaelGG » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:05 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #133

raverbashing wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know why nobody seems to put information like "warning: this phone's UI in is total and utter crap". This is what makes me use SW and equipment only in English. Translations are pretty much useless (and of course, Googling the English error messages usually gives the best results)

It makes sense if not all of your target demographic, or at least a large part, cannot read English on the level neccesary to use your tool. However, for a lot of modern tools that isn't the case. Often a translated tool is an order of magnitude less usable because of broken translations and inability to Google things. It's also infurating that lots of tools look at your Windows location when deciding your language.…

That's if you're lucky! Google does far worse, and picks a language based on their often broken geo IP system. It's not even fixable. When viewing alt text for Google doodles, for instance, I get "localized" text even if the rest if the UI is in English. Google Play also has jacked up section titles from time to time.

Netflix search box is the same way. This is in addition to the discriminatory practice of often not providing subtitles in the language of the audio track.

Chrome also would install in the geo IP language, regardless of system settings. How arrogant is that? They deliberately disregard your OS language settings and pick another for you. And, it'd force the default Google search to go to the localized version until it detected a few location. Which, in Denver has had me appear in France then Hungary, as their database somehow accumulates errors. And again, no way to fully opt out- even selecting English and .com would still show country specific logos and such on eg YouTube.

Xbox is also a mess. You can buy games that are country restricted, with zero warning. When downloading, the Xbox provides no indication of a problem until it finishes. Then it does a geo check and reports "download corrupted". Xbox support wanted to RMA the unit, as they were convinced this was a hardware issue and had no KB info on country restrictions. Using a VPN fixed it.

Basically it seems that many developers are brain dead or simply do not care about travelers, expats, or anyone with different language prefs.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#145

Post by schoen » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:06 PM UTC

blywi wrote: post #125

lmm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool example, but I think "ne" is the "correct" way to romanize ね.

Could also be from German, although this would also be written ne instead of neh. People from the northern part of Germany use this in pretty much the same way it is used in Japanese (at least according to what I know with my limited knowledge of Japanese) I always thought of this as a strange quirk that the same language construct can evolve in two unrelated languages. It's just like parallel evolution in biology.

There's also Brazilian Portuguese "né", which is an end-of-sentence tag with exactly the same meaning. It's a contraction of "não é" ('isn't it') and is used in a way akin to German "nicht wahr".

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#146

Post by MichaelGG » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

gldalmaso wrote: post #9

In order to avoid these pitfalls, usually I get out of "sentence" mode to "label" mode. For instance: "Directories scanned: 12". Probably not well suited for all cases, but usually good enough for mine, though actually I only have to support pt-BR, es-ES and en-US so maybe that's not saying much.

Exactly. All this work, or just restructure the message. It should be acceptable in most languages, because charts and spreadsheets aren't going to have per cell labels. And it has the benefit of being easier to read and parse.

Also, it's a really terrible style to use first person in an app unless it's actually sentient. Otherwise it's annoyingly like Clippy, or just plain obnoxious and presumptive.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#147

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

psykovsky wrote: post #126

TeMPOraL wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A professional translator makes sure to check the context of the translation, it doesn't go blindly translating sentences and words without context. From my experience with both software and movies, that's exactly what a professional, paid translator does (or is forced to). Amateurs at least watch the movie/run the software before translating things, which is something I definitely cannot say about "professionals"…

The problem you describe is one of incompetence. The professionals are not really professionals. And yet, someone is paying them as if they were. That is not the case everywhere, I assure you. A little of anecdata: In Portugal, where foreign stuff is translated and subtitled, the quality of translations/subtitles in english language movies and series in very good. Or at least it used to be, I can't be sure anymore si…

My personal experience comes from Poland, where quality of movie translations has been basically a running joke throughout the years among the population that knows even a little bit of English. I do know personally a few professional translators - they're really smart and competent people, and most of them are even quite tech-savvy. Sadly, they don't get to translate movies.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#148

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #103

TeMPOraL wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In our mind the English word and its native translation have semantically different meanings. Because they quite often have (I'd wager that more often than not). To use your example, English "Insert" cuts through a different part of concept-space than Polish "Wstaw" (which is what usually ends up as a menu label). It's a fine translation up until you ask to insert a DVD - now you should say "Wsuń" or "Włóż". And I…

I agree completely. The problem arises when your girlfriend (or friend or whatever) visits you in the homeland and you suddenly find yourself struggling to find words because many of the things at home don't have English names. It becomes even worse when you have to act as translator between them and your family who doesn't speak English or doesn't speak it as well. Yes, I had a lot of fun over the holidays ... Even…

> Yes, I had a lot of fun over the holidays ...

Yeah, I can totally imagine it :D.

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#149

Post by merijnv » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #127

TeMPOraL wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why nobody seems to put information like "warning: this phone's UI in is total and utter crap". Anyway, what you wrote is exactly why I stick to using all software and webservices - OS, text editors, Facebook, et al. - in en_US instead of my native pl_PL. Because translations are always crappy - even for big players. Lack of context is the key here - translated text often feels out of place, because ther…

You know what multi-million movie has a translation that isn't total crap? Frozen . They really put resources into that. You can look up random Disney songs on Youtube in different languages, and then look up the Frozen songs, and you can sort of tell that they've done a better job even if you don't speak the language. Even relatively obscure languages like Dutch where they usually just watch English-language movies:…

To be honest, I thought the Dutch translation was relatively awkward (I have to admit I've only heard the Dutch "Let It Go" version, not the rest of the movie). I thought the Flemish version was much nicer, despite some Flemish phrasing sounding off as Dutch...

Re: A Localization Horror Story: It Could Happen to You

#150

Post by raverbashing » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #127

TeMPOraL wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why nobody seems to put information like "warning: this phone's UI in is total and utter crap". Anyway, what you wrote is exactly why I stick to using all software and webservices - OS, text editors, Facebook, et al. - in en_US instead of my native pl_PL. Because translations are always crappy - even for big players. Lack of context is the key here - translated text often feels out of place, because ther…

You know what multi-million movie has a translation that isn't total crap? Frozen . They really put resources into that. You can look up random Disney songs on Youtube in different languages, and then look up the Frozen songs, and you can sort of tell that they've done a better job even if you don't speak the language. Even relatively obscure languages like Dutch where they usually just watch English-language movies:…

Because Kids (and Disney)

High-end kids movies are usually localized carefully, including songs, etc (there's a YT video with snippets of all the versions)

And of course they don't split the movie into phrases and make them translate one by one