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Italia Startup Visa

italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it

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Re: Italia Startup Visa

#141

Post by scardine »

mystixx wrote: post #109
gruturo wrote: post #11

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of mon…

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that…

I'm 3rd generation of Italians that emigrated to Brazil. Regions with lots of Italian immigrants like Buenos Aires in Argentina or Sao Paulo in Brazil can resonate with every feeling in this thread.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#142

Post by andretti1977 »

agos wrote: post #119
andretti1977 wrote: post #58

From a business point of view, STAY AWAY FROM ITALY. I'm an italian computer engineer and work as a freelance with VAT number since 5 years and i can say that there are no fiscal or burocratic simplifications and aids for startup. There is a reason why a lot of italians preferred to create a ltd based in the UK instead of a srl in italy. There is a reason why a lot of italian entreprenuers are moving to Switzerland.…

regarding the requirements, you read wrong: you need Ph.D.s OR patents OR to spend at least 15% in R&D. And the third option is really really easy to achieve.

You are right, it's an OR condition

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#143

Post by massimosgrelli »

davidw wrote: post #69
riffraff wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public sector contracts are given to people who are completely incompetent but well connected to be fair, I believe this to be the case about everywhere. I.e. the Oregon healthcare site fiasco[0] seems straight out of italian newspapers. [0] http://www.wired.com/2014/03/oracle-oregon/

I can comment on this, being from Oregon and living in Italy:-) Basically, this kind of thing happens everywhere. It just happens more in some places. Back to this: > - There are some absolutely excellent open source developers who can be hired much more cheaply than the US. I can confirm this. I think a valid strategy would be to open up the main office somewhere else, and do some R&D in Italy. There are good develo…

Yes I confirm this. I live in Italy but the company I co-founded in San Francisco runs thanks to Italian engineering talent. And that's good for starting, not so sure when you raise round A - a good one. If you have money to spend it's probably better to move everyone to California. Don't you think? However it's true that the quality of life in Italy is a lot higher than the Bay Area, but you need to stop fighting the system or be part of it if you want to have a really good life. About your "this kind of thing happens everywhere", I'm not sure you are right. At least not in the high tech hubs around the world. And again, do you think that Portland is like Italy? I've been there just a few times but my perception is completely different from the business point of view. When you are a tourist though, everything is fine pretty much everywhere.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#144

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Italy is a great country to live in and I'm not trying to discourage you, but keep in mind that from every €100 you make, at least €66 go to the state.

To put this in terms of time and assuming you're a workaholic who doesn't take vacations, in a year you work 8 months for the state and 4 months for yourself.

And then there's the problem of the state being a jerk and making you pay VAT one year in advance or taxing you based on estimates done with market studies instead of the much smaller revenue you declare.

Something like: "the average company/self-employed individual in your business made €30K this year while you declare only €10K. We're gonna assume you're lying to us and tax you for the market average, mkay? Oh, and we'll need the 22% VAT on the €30K we think you'll do next year right now."

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#145

Post by enricotal »

edelweiss22 wrote: post #89
enricotal wrote: post #85

I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts... THE CONS: Italy environment is toxic for a startup. Italy is a MandarinCracy. It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence along with the highest taxation (80%)…

I don't understand why people like to bash on their own country. 80%? Not certainly for everyone. As a freelance I pay 5% until I reach an higher level of income and I'll be able to pay more taxes. On top of this there's 21% for retirement contributions. Is there any other country where a lower amount of taxes is paid?

edelweiss22 I am not bashing I'm stating the obvious.

If you are a company in Italy you pay high taxes and you are less competitive.

If you are a freelancer in Italy you are more competitive than other countries

That's the point of my post:

Incorporate your startup elsewhere and hire in Italy

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#146

Post by stefantalpalaru »

gQTZNsXG wrote: post #126
mmf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organized crime has nothing to do with the issues of opening a startup in Italy! What is missing is an ecosystem for startups: no VCs, fair amount of bureaucracy and challenging employment laws. However, you get great engineers, passionate, inventive and hard working for a pricing that is competitive with India. (Sad but true).

Yeah sure. Go open a startup company in Naples, wait for someone to ask you for /pizzo/ and let's talk again about this.

You know how much is the protection tax in zones controlled by organized crime? 3% of your profit.

You know how much the state takes from your (revenue - expenses)? At least 66%.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#147

Post by massimosgrelli »

danmaz74 wrote: post #34

As an Italian, I have to say that Italy isn't the first place where I would open a startup, but many comments here are really exaggerated. Corruption and crime, in the center and north of Italy (the most economically active part), is nowhere as prevalent as they say. Unfortunately, because of the crisis that really hit hard here, there is a very gloomy sentiment in lots of Italians. But as a consequence of the crisis…

Sorry but the taxation thing about the new workers is a very messy thing. You have to hire people who is not employed and with lot of others constraints. About the Italian got startups special laws and they should have access to a 35% reduction on labour cost but you need to hire specific categories of people. Talent always has a job.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#148

Post by massimosgrelli »

enricotal wrote: post #85

I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts... THE CONS: Italy environment is toxic for a startup. Italy is a MandarinCracy. It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence along with the highest taxation (80%)…

I agree, unfortunately. R&D in Italy makes sense at least in the start-up phase, probably more harder in the scale-up phase.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#149

Post by toyg »

As an Italian expat, I do welcome the attempt; I just wonder who would actually apply for one.

If you're in the US, your ecosystem is so much more startup-friendly, there is no point moving anywhere else -- opening a cheap R&D is probably the only reason I can think of, but if you're going for costs savings in that area, wouldn't you get a better deal in Eastern Europe?

If you are in Europe, you don't need a VISA to move to Italy.

The only people who would lust after this, IMHO, are:

1. South-Americans who can't or won't get into the United States;

2. Middle-Easters who can't or won't get into Gulf countries or Israel;

3. the kids of first-generation immigrants in Italy who can't get citizenship (because Italian immigration laws are stupid).

Are these constituencies large enough to create a significant ecosystem? I don't know. They will certainly face huge problems with casual racism in the business sector, if they try to sell in the Italian market. And venture finance for unconnected businesses in Italy is non-existent; the culture is very risk-averse, and capital is too sparsely distributed to make venturing palatable to the average investor.

But hey, good luck. At least they're trying something, I guess.

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