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Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

blog.jonliv.es

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Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#61

Post by morgante »

normloman wrote: post #53
morgante wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't chose your co-workers. This is where you're going wrong. Personally, who I will be working with is one of the biggest factors in deciding where to work. A great team can make a tough job fun and a terrible team can make a great job unbearable. > Can you ask people to leave their family behind for a week so they can bond with their co-workers? Honestly, I think if you're a 100% remote company that's a tota…

You assume isolated hours are equivalent to long stretches of time. If I told my wife she wouldn't see me for an hour a day, she wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told her I had to leave her for a week, she'd miss the hell out of me. An hour isn't long enough to miss anyone. Furthermore, you have less choice over your co-workers than you think. One interview is not enough time to know whether you can be friends with some…

> If I told my wife she wouldn't see me for an hour a day, she wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told her I had to leave her for a week, she'd miss the hell out of me.

I suppose as an unmarried young man I don't really understand that. It does seem like not being able to be apart for a week is a bit of a dependency issue.

Funnily enough, I'm also a hiring manager at a small startup—so I guess I do have more control over my coworkers than most people.

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#62

Post by jacalata »

normloman wrote: post #47
odonnellryan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think developers forget sometimes - and I really don't mean this in a negative way - that they are people too, not machines. People generally need some level of human contact, in person, to grow and form strong bonds with each other. I think remote works great, but it only works if you get to see some people you work with sometimes. The money the company saves can be put into a fund to bring the team together a few…

My problem with a company vacation: The people I work with are not my friends. I despise most of them. This is true for every place I've worked. It's probably true for most people here. You don't chose your co-workers. And now you're forcing me to take my vacation with these people, who I put up with every day at work. You may be puzzled reading this. "But my company is like a family." Some companies are really like…

> You don't chose your co-workers. And now you're forcing me to take my vacation with these people, who I put up with every day at work.

It's not a vacation. Think of it as a company-specific conference. Yes, you can ask people to leave their family behind for a week (or pay for them to join you) if you tell them when offering the job.

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#63

Post by boothead »

quaffapint wrote: post #9

I've been working remotely for a big bank for the past 7 years. I don't go into an office and haven't seen my team in the past 4 years. The last time people got together for a project kickoff a few years back they just sat around a conference table all on webex. I stayed home. Unfortunately new management is taking away the remote option for new hires for the most part. Also some people based on where they live had t…

Not seen that much remote work in banking. I work at an investment bank in London at the moment, and while I do have to option to work at home, it's only really supposed to be if you need to.

With the state of public transport in London, it can't be long before they start looking at how much money they lose on a prticularly bad day of thier employees being stuch on a train somewhere!

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#64

Post by normloman »

morgante wrote: post #61
normloman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume isolated hours are equivalent to long stretches of time. If I told my wife she wouldn't see me for an hour a day, she wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told her I had to leave her for a week, she'd miss the hell out of me. An hour isn't long enough to miss anyone. Furthermore, you have less choice over your co-workers than you think. One interview is not enough time to know whether you can be friends with some…

> If I told my wife she wouldn't see me for an hour a day, she wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told her I had to leave her for a week, she'd miss the hell out of me. I suppose as an unmarried young man I don't really understand that. It does seem like not being able to be apart for a week is a bit of a dependency issue. Funnily enough, I'm also a hiring manager at a small startup—so I guess I do have more control over…

It's not that we can't be apart for a week. If I had to leave for my job, she would understand. But it would be difficult. When you live with someone, and see them every day, you notice their absence more.

Did you go to college? Or did you ever go away to camp? Didn't your parents miss you the first week you were away? Maybe you can relate to that better.

Also, If you're a hiring manager, you shouldn't be hiring people you'd like to work with. You should be hiring the best person for the job. Do you ever think you're passing on great talent because they aren't the sort of person you'd have a beer with?

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#65

Post by morgante »

normloman wrote: post #64
morgante wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I told my wife she wouldn't see me for an hour a day, she wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told her I had to leave her for a week, she'd miss the hell out of me. I suppose as an unmarried young man I don't really understand that. It does seem like not being able to be apart for a week is a bit of a dependency issue. Funnily enough, I'm also a hiring manager at a small startup—so I guess I do have more control over…

It's not that we can't be apart for a week. If I had to leave for my job, she would understand. But it would be difficult. When you live with someone, and see them every day, you notice their absence more. Did you go to college? Or did you ever go away to camp? Didn't your parents miss you the first week you were away? Maybe you can relate to that better. Also, If you're a hiring manager, you shouldn't be hiring peop…

> Did you go to college? Or did you ever go away to camp? Didn't your parents miss you the first week you were away? Maybe you can relate to that better.

Probably, but it was never a significant enough thing that it ever factored into our decisions. Then again, I'm someone who chose to attend boarding school and university halfway across the world.

> Also, If you're a hiring manager, you shouldn't be hiring people you'd like to work with. You should be hiring the best person for the job

Considering that I like to work with intelligent, kind, and motivated people I consider those mostly synonymous.

> Do you ever think you're passing on great talent because they aren't the sort of person you'd have a beer with?

Nope. Whether I'd have a beer with them isn't my test. Plenty of my favorite colleagues definitely aren't my drinking buddies. Rather, I ask myself if I'd like working with them on a daily basis and whether their presence would positively contribute to the office environment. If I suspect they'd be a negative influence, I don't see any reason to hire them—even i they're a brilliant coder.

Fortunately, that's rarely a choice. Most of the great developers I know are also fundamentally kind and humble people.

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#66

Post by normloman »

morgante wrote: post #65
normloman wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that we can't be apart for a week. If I had to leave for my job, she would understand. But it would be difficult. When you live with someone, and see them every day, you notice their absence more. Did you go to college? Or did you ever go away to camp? Didn't your parents miss you the first week you were away? Maybe you can relate to that better. Also, If you're a hiring manager, you shouldn't be hiring peop…

> Did you go to college? Or did you ever go away to camp? Didn't your parents miss you the first week you were away? Maybe you can relate to that better. Probably, but it was never a significant enough thing that it ever factored into our decisions. Then again, I'm someone who chose to attend boarding school and university halfway across the world. > Also, If you're a hiring manager, you shouldn't be hiring people yo…

I think we can all agree that hiring intelligent, kind people, and motivated people is the right thing to do. I'm asking a different question. Would you pass on a great developer because they don't have anything in common with you? Would you pass on someone because they had an annoying quirk that bothered you? Would you pass on someone because they seemed boring, despite being a great developer? Being a good hiring manager, you probably don't. But it also makes for the kind of team that you wouldn't want to hang out with after work.

You say that plenty of your favorite colleagues definitely are not your drinking buddies. Can I presume that you also wouldn't want to go on long trips with them?

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#67

Post by odonnellryan »

normloman wrote: post #47
odonnellryan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think developers forget sometimes - and I really don't mean this in a negative way - that they are people too, not machines. People generally need some level of human contact, in person, to grow and form strong bonds with each other. I think remote works great, but it only works if you get to see some people you work with sometimes. The money the company saves can be put into a fund to bring the team together a few…

My problem with a company vacation: The people I work with are not my friends. I despise most of them. This is true for every place I've worked. It's probably true for most people here. You don't chose your co-workers. And now you're forcing me to take my vacation with these people, who I put up with every day at work. You may be puzzled reading this. "But my company is like a family." Some companies are really like…

I don't think that is healthy at all.

Let's say you have a favorite person that you really enjoy being with all the time, at most you'll probably manage to get 50 hrs a week in with them. Way less if you do any of the following (and more) alone: exercise, study, side projects, home renovations, reading, movies, etc..

Most people spend at least 30 hours a week with their coworkers. 3/5 ratio is insane for people you hate! How do you think that shapes your attitude, personality, etc.. and how does that impact your happiness?

My company is absolutely not like a family, it is very much so work. But, if I hated everyone, or even most of them, it wouldn't work out!

Company vacations (or whatever you want to call them) are silly (IMO) if you're already seeing those people 30+ hours a week. I don't think it is very silly if you're seeing them < 8 hrs a week.

Re: Remote Working – 3 Year Retrospective

#68

Post by normloman »

odonnellryan wrote: post #67
normloman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with a company vacation: The people I work with are not my friends. I despise most of them. This is true for every place I've worked. It's probably true for most people here. You don't chose your co-workers. And now you're forcing me to take my vacation with these people, who I put up with every day at work. You may be puzzled reading this. "But my company is like a family." Some companies are really like…

I don't think that is healthy at all. Let's say you have a favorite person that you really enjoy being with all the time, at most you'll probably manage to get 50 hrs a week in with them. Way less if you do any of the following (and more) alone: exercise, study, side projects, home renovations, reading, movies, etc.. Most people spend at least 30 hours a week with their coworkers. 3/5 ratio is insane for people you h…

You're not picking up on my hyperbole. I don't actively hate everyone around me. I'm saying there's no guarantee the people I work with are gonna be the same people I'd hag out with outside of work. I feel I have to say this, because I notice so many articles and comments on HN consisting of founders calling their start-up a family and stressing culture fit. This is a bad idea for a host of reasons.

In most workplaces, you aren't obligated to like your coworkers. Just to tolerate them, and work as a team. Making me go away with them for a week doesn't sound like a "vacation." It sounds like a ton of work. It seems you agree with me on that point, but reckon it's ok for remote workers. That's where we disagree. I don't take jobs that require me to travel, and that wouldn't change for remote work.

I should point out that even if you tolerate most of your coworkers, there's probably one you really hate. Maybe they have an annoying laugh, microwave fish in the break room, and constantly make bad jokes. Imagine taking a vacation with that person!

But hey, part of life is learning to work with people who are different than you. I hope we don't lose that as people shift into remote working situations.

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