Live data from Hacker News

I Owe It All to Community College

nytimes.com

181–190 of 286 posts

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#181
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we just buy everything that is cheaper than the Iraq war, we will very soon be bankrupt.

The Iraq War has cost us ~$6,000,000,000,000 (that's ~$17k per US citizen). Under Obama's plan, that money could be used to pay for two years of community college for every student willing to do the require work for the next 1000 years! Of course we shouldn't "buy everything that's cheaper than the Iraq war", but that's not what is being argued. This was just to show a contrast between two ~10-year projects. It doesn…

How do you propose we evaluate the return on the Iraq War?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This says less about education than it does about the inefficiency of the Iraq war.

How much does an efficient war cost?

If these numbers are believed, less than the Iraq War: http://www.quora.com/How-much-money-did-World-War-II-cost

(Also efficient wars cost less time, and that one was even against a much more formidable enemy.)

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#183
post #44

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

> instead of taking it out of the federal govt. budget Why is education for the citizens of a country considered something that a countries government should have no part in in the US? If education really is something important for the country, would it not make more sense for the country to prioritize and fund it as opposed to leaving it to the whims of whomever feels like funding it that day?

Why is education for the citizens of a country considered something that a countries government should have no part in in the US?

It's not that the government should have no part in education; an ancap believes "a countries government" shouldn't exist at all. That's the an(archo) in ancap.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#184
post #109
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikipedia entry on Anarcho-capitalism[1] dives into these details. It's a fascinating philosophy that, in my opinion, severely underestimates the human affinity for greed and manipulation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Over all my other problems with anarcho-capitalism and minarchism, the biggest is how much more time I'd waste and how much more anxiety I'd have. Just thinking about all the new stuff I'd have to keep up with to avoid getting screwed gives me a headache. Food safety guarantors, some sort of court and law associations, drug safety certifiers, all kinds of insurance I don't have to worry about now, and so on. Having t…

> I don't see the appeal.

Disenfranchisement, as per most modes of radicality. I have observed as a near-universality among ancap types that they have identified at formative times of their lives as being "othered." They're not the in-crowd and they're not fundamentally of it. My suspicion is that they have a secret (or unsecret) opinion of themselves as misunderstood ubermenschen. (I recall that phase of my life, but then, I was fourteen.) With emotional and social development it became obvious to me, and to most recovering right-libertarian/ancap types I know of, that countless people helped me along the way because we decided, structurally and socially, that people should be helped. (We don't help everyone equally or sufficiently, and an expansion of it is decried by the you-got-mine, pulling-the-ladder-up-after-me types, but we try.)

I have made a pet interest of confronting the ancap types I occasionally run into--in tech, you sometimes stumble across enough of a True Believer to let their flag fly high--with questions of, what do you do when you're born into poverty? What is your recourse when you have nothing to sell? What do you do when somebody--but not the state, because the state doing it is Wrong, but Jim down the road with a real big gun and a couple muscley friends is just participating in economic activity--takes everything from you? The answers start evasively, but I've read as much von Mises and Rothbard as most of the vocal adherents and I can speak their language enough to fight on their own terms. Laughable handwaves of insurance companies and private security aside--and we called these "barons" in a prior age, but history and economics have already been laid aside to get into their weird twists of philosophy, so no it will not turn into feudalism, that's a silly notion--the answer is and will always be "and then you lose and you die". What chills me is that while most seem to have enough of an emotional intelligence to know that this argument doesn't win, I rarely hear even a shred of doubt when you finally get to that hard little core--because the idea of losing so totally as to be rendered economically incapable is not part of the equation. Other people lose, not them. This is also why there is so much overlap in this crowd of the worship of eat-your-dead meritocracy; that ancap nonsense devolves inevitably into feudalism is a feature, not a bug. Because they believe, as is their right, that they will be the knights, if not the barons and dukes and kings, of their new order.

I've run a few drafts of this post to leech out most of the pejorative nature I feel the ideas and the ideologues are due, and what remains should be taken more to be a mark of how truly alien (and I mean that in the sense of "inhuman") you have to get and how much reality you must pitch out the window at highway speeds to bend into a mode where the ancap arguments even make sense, let alone appeal. I am convinced that there is something rather fundamentally unwell about the whole thing. I have tried very hard to relate to it for years and my conclusion inevitably ends up being something around a predilection for cultish predations or never-outgrown teenage immaturity, and neither are satisfying but both fit the facts in evidence. I mean, I can have a discussion with a Communist. A Marxist and I are operating in a fundamentally relatable frame of reference. I don't agree with where they're going, but Marxists do not eject the entirety of human history to reach their conclusions--we can talk and actually agree what words mean. Every ancap I have ever met has washed their brains and adopted the weird sublanguage of the movement (Orwell was right...) and I can't do a thing with them except hope like hell they never stumble on a lever of power.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so is irregardless. Can I ask why you take the time to correct someone when it was perfectly clear what the intent of the sentence was?

I live in a post-colonial country where English is the official language but 90% of the population have another language as their mother-tongue. There is therefore a lot of "broken" english spoken, and I guess I'm just used to correcting people (and being corrected myself). Irregardless is one of those words that is becoming OK to say just because so many people use it. Language adapts and therefore English is descri…

A statement in a programming language means the same regardless of the education-level, ethnicity, or social status of the reader. I wish the same were true for English.

That would make English very boring and dry. What of poetry and evocative prose? Natural languages and programming languages serve very different purposes, despite their similarities.

Natural languages, since their inception, have been subjective reflections of people, emotions, cultures, points in time. What you wish for isn't even possible, due to the fact that different people will always have the potential to interpret things differently, based on their genetic predispositions and life experiences.

If we tried to make languages more prescriptive, we wouldn't end up with some golden era where everybody communicates amazingly with each other, it would be more like 1984 where the potential for creativity and emotional expressivity has been largely diminished.

---

Edit: I do understand the point, and of course I try to use words "properly" most of the time. There is a difference between inventing new constructs and usages in order to express something, and just simply being "wrong." E.g. mixing up "your" and "you're" is a pretty cut-and-dried error. But, at the end of the day, all the rules are totally subjectively made up, and their only true purpose is to make it easier for people to understand each other, so if you can accomplish that, the rules don't actually matter.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so is irregardless. Can I ask why you take the time to correct someone when it was perfectly clear what the intent of the sentence was?

I live in a post-colonial country where English is the official language but 90% of the population have another language as their mother-tongue. There is therefore a lot of "broken" english spoken, and I guess I'm just used to correcting people (and being corrected myself). Irregardless is one of those words that is becoming OK to say just because so many people use it. Language adapts and therefore English is descri…

Brush him off.

As a foreigner I feel the same about English and its declining quality of grammar on the web

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#187
post #30

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

>As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That's pretty hard core. How would you fund services like police/fire departments or infrastructure improvements (roads, electricity), basically anything where its existence benefits many (as opposed to say redoing education to require parents to pay for individual tutoring o…

Slightly off-topic, your questions remind me of this satire: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertaria... (never fails to make me laugh)

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

narrow-sighted logic. Diversity is what makes life. If you attach future earning potential qualifier to the free education, then you'll have a disproportionate amount of people attempting fit their square potential into a round hole. Over a long period of time, you loose out the natural diversity that would otherwise exist in the general public - of people each dedicated to skill set they are best match for. Not ever…

Yes, and this is one of the reasons I don't want the government involved in education at all. But, since they choose to be so involved, I find myself feeling that government spending on education should take the value of that education into account. But you're exactly right, in that it's hard to actually do that. In the end, there are no perfect answers to any of this, it's just a question of "which variables do you…

If an education produces a non-libertarian, would you consider that of higher or lower value than an education that produces a libertarian?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was frequently pushed and challenged by excellent professors who had true passion for their subjects I'm paying $47,336 to go to a private institution and wish this was true. Internal politics and tenure have ensured friends of department chairs have gotten the jobs irregardless of teaching ability, skill, research, knowledge in the subject area..

OT: > irregardless regardless is fine.

> and wish this was true.

*were

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#190
For my personal story, I graduated high school in 2001 and wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I was good in Math and liked computers, so I was planning on going to a normal university and just finding something in those fields (I didn't have a major or a program in mind, I was just going to go in as "undecided").

However, because of the cost and my own reluctance to get student loans, I ended up enrolling in a community college with the intention of just doing some basic courses for cheaper before transferring. While taking your typical math, science, history, and english courses; I also took an elective called "Intro to Computer Art" or something like that. Mind you, I hadn't taken any art courses in high school at all - no music, drawing, painting, whatever; I only took the minimum requirements and then filled my extra spaces with advanced math, science, and computer science.

I enjoyed the elective and decided to take more in the same program ("Visual Communications"). I explored traditional design, web design, video editing, and 3d animation. At the end, I got my Associate degree in Graphic Design (having never had wanted to be a designer at any time before college). Of course, all the exploration meant I spent well more than 2 years there (I also took things like Astronomy, which I liked after I changed teachers).

From there, I found an internship through the dean of the program who forwarded me an email from a company looking for interns and, afterwards, found my first job in the field through someone I had taken a couple of classes with.

From there, I was able to learn development on the job and change jobs a number of times - each time for a better experience and generally better pay. From a Texas suburb, I've gone to Minneapolis, New York, and now the SF Bay area all based on what I initially learned from community college.

My case is a bit different than what the President is intending, as he seems to see it more for learning a specific skill (like a trade school) instead of exploring what it is you want to do.

I think this is fine, but I really believe that the best case for community college is that it's a great place to explore different programs if, like me, you're leaving high school with no idea what you want to do (as many people seem to do).

Post reply on HN