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I Owe It All to Community College

nytimes.com

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Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#41

Post by jordache »

mindcrime wrote: post #26
Shivetya wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarian here as well. I am more of the opinion that the government should set rules on the cost of education for any school accepting government aid or any school who accepts students who pay with government loans. Want to get the price of education back in line, drop the open checkbook. The issue I take with taxing to pay for everyone's college is that apparently there is no determination what constitutes a good…

As in, I do not want to see money thrown at majors that can never pay back the investment or require such skill and luck to achieve pay back relative to the cost. Good point. Paying for somebody to get a degree in, say, Medieval History, so they only job they can get post-college is "Barista at Starbucks", seems suboptimal to me.

narrow-sighted logic.

Diversity is what makes life. If you attach future earning potential qualifier to the free education, then you'll have a disproportionate amount of people attempting fit their square potential into a round hole.

Over a long period of time, you loose out the natural diversity that would otherwise exist in the general public - of people each dedicated to skill set they are best match for.

Not everything human produces ought to have an economic component.

Painters, Poets, Musicians... ?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#43

Post by atom-morgan »

thoth wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #9

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

>As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That's pretty hard core. How would you fund services like police/fire departments or infrastructure improvements (roads, electricity), basically anything where its existence benefits many (as opposed to say redoing education to require parents to pay for individual tutoring o…

> How would you fund services like police/fire departments or infrastructure improvements (roads, electricity), basically anything where its existence benefits many

Wouldn't food also fall into this category? Its existence benefits many. Would you want to nationalize food production?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#44

Post by mhurron »

mindcrime wrote: post #9

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

> instead of taking it out of the federal govt. budget

Why is education for the citizens of a country considered something that a countries government should have no part in in the US?

If education really is something important for the country, would it not make more sense for the country to prioritize and fund it as opposed to leaving it to the whims of whomever feels like funding it that day?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#45

Post by jordache »

mindcrime wrote: post #39
thoth wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That's pretty hard core. How would you fund services like police/fire departments or infrastructure improvements (roads, electricity), basically anything where its existence benefits many (as opposed to say redoing education to require parents to pay for individual tutoring o…

This is, unfortunately, not something where I can easily give you a short, sweet and concise answer. There's a massive body of literature (and much debate) on the answers to those questions. I guess the most concise answer I can give here, without having to write a huge essay, would be to say "a combination of all of the above" (that is, "voluntary tipping", "usage fees", and "other").

Does the libertarian anti-tax concept go to the extend of HOA fees?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#46

Post by Rapzid »

toxican wrote: post #12
fatjokes wrote: post #3

> classes I dropped after the first hour (astronomy, because it was all math) Yet another cultural figure stating without embarrassment how bad they are at math.

I'm just impressed that a community college level astronomy course had math in it. Mine was nothing but familiarizing students stargazing and terminology.

You mean college level? My stellar astronomy involved quite a bit of computation for orbits, determining the mass of stars, etc.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#47

Post by Rapzid »

fatjokes wrote: post #8
elinchrome wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly he optimized his brain for arts. Why would he be good at math?

Not the point. It undermines the whole STEM promotion that the US is currently undergoing. You never hear anybody brag about how they no can read gooder, if they're an athlete, butcher, scientist, whatever.

Well, he wasn't bragging about being bad at math. Also, people use reading every day so it's no surprise that most people are reasonably proficient at it even decades after college.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#48

Post by TheCowboy »

Shivetya wrote: post #20
mindcrime wrote: post #9

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

Libertarian here as well. I am more of the opinion that the government should set rules on the cost of education for any school accepting government aid or any school who accepts students who pay with government loans. Want to get the price of education back in line, drop the open checkbook. The issue I take with taxing to pay for everyone's college is that apparently there is no determination what constitutes a good…

Limiting the number of years is rather inflexible and can lock people out for mistakes or significant changes in the market place (such as graduating into a global recession).

I personally have found that due to rules in my state, that I am prevented from going back and pursuing a computer science degree, because there are such limits in place.

This also doesn't consider that people from worse are backgrounds tend to take longer to get through school. This can range from personal or family sickness (caring for parents is common). We always hear from the proud examples of people who overcame their circumstances, but it creates a survivor bias.

From an economic perspective, we are missing out when people get locked out for life who could contribute more to the economy. That's less wealth being created.

I just point that out because while it's easy for us to come up with seemingly simply solutions, but without any built-in flexibility we're back to the same place.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#49

Post by mindcrime »

jordache wrote: post #41
mindcrime wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in, I do not want to see money thrown at majors that can never pay back the investment or require such skill and luck to achieve pay back relative to the cost. Good point. Paying for somebody to get a degree in, say, Medieval History, so they only job they can get post-college is "Barista at Starbucks", seems suboptimal to me.

narrow-sighted logic. Diversity is what makes life. If you attach future earning potential qualifier to the free education, then you'll have a disproportionate amount of people attempting fit their square potential into a round hole. Over a long period of time, you loose out the natural diversity that would otherwise exist in the general public - of people each dedicated to skill set they are best match for. Not ever…

Yes, and this is one of the reasons I don't want the government involved in education at all. But, since they choose to be so involved, I find myself feeling that government spending on education should take the value of that education into account. But you're exactly right, in that it's hard to actually do that.

In the end, there are no perfect answers to any of this, it's just a question of "which variables do you optimize for?"

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#50

Post by icebraining »

hsitz wrote: post #37
Shivetya wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarian here as well. I am more of the opinion that the government should set rules on the cost of education for any school accepting government aid or any school who accepts students who pay with government loans. Want to get the price of education back in line, drop the open checkbook. The issue I take with taxing to pay for everyone's college is that apparently there is no determination what constitutes a good…

As in, I do not want to see money thrown at majors that can never pay back the investment or require such skill and luck to achieve pay back relative to the cost. Sounds to me then like you're in favor of "government planning" of the economy, which is essentially what it is when the government is picking and choosing which majors (and which people!) to subsidize. Strange libertarian position.

The government is already picking and choosing - there is already criteria to decide what schools should be accredited and funded. It's not unlibertarian to defend they should have better criteria.
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