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Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

theguardian.com

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Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#461
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're gonna denounce a religion, can you at least get the sects done correctly? Wahhabism / Salafist Islam, which is a very small minority of Muslims, is the one preaching the extremist reaction. The majority of mainstream Shia / Shiite Muslims are actually peaceful. They kinda don't like the cartoons, but I don't know of any attack from "mainstream" Muslims. They all come from the Al Quaeda-inspired Salafist sec…

Let's see ... Freedom of speech ... the answer is "No". Every other religion, and atheism, and every government party, and ... Don't get this treatment. Just on page two of the newspaper in front of me is a depiction of green party voters as idiots. Apparently they're all women, ugly, fat and insane. This depiction is done to denounce what boils down to the actions of a city official. Should I write the paper complai…

As far as Freedom of speech... yeah, he can have it. As can I, and I'm using my freedom of speech to call out ignorance. Denouncing all Muslims is utterly Bigoted, especially when you consider how much in the minority the violent Wahhabist are in the great scheme of Islam.

Denounce Muslims all you want... I'm not going to stop you. Yeah, you have freedom of speech. But instead, I'll use _my_ freedom of speech to counter-argue a point.

>>> Every other religion, and atheism, and every government party, and ... Don't get this treatment.

Erm... thats not what I'm talking about. When Irish Catholics Gasoline Bomb British cities, people don't use the actions of the violent IRA as a denunciation of Christianity as a whole.

What do the Irish Catholic IRA have to do with Mormans? Nothing. Or Protestants? I'm asking you to understand basic Islam here. There are many Muslims.

The violent sect is called Wahhabism, and most mainstream Muslims denounce that sect (Shiite and Shia are mainstream IIRC). And much like how Irish Catholics don't represent Catholics as a whole (IRA violence was not condoned by the Pope), Osama Bin Laden's specific philosophy on extremely violent Wahhabism is only a minority opinion of that minority sect.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only on torrents, Comedy Central has tried to erase it from history. That's bizarre. A quick Google search led me to the full episode here: http://pollystreaming.com/South-Park-Season-5-Episode-3-Supe... I'm not sure if this is due to the Streissand Effect.

But isn't that just a pirate 'tube site? Same idea. I think the previous poster just meant that you won't find it on any of the DVDs, digital sales, or official streams.

Fair enough. All the good stuff is usually highly visible online regardless of companies' intentions.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#463
post #77
post #4

> Warning: this article contains the image of the magazine cover, which some may find offensive. It's the first time I've seen something like this on Guardian; I don't even remember it on articles discussing rape, murder or such, which is usually where "trigger warning" applies. Personally, I find such trigger warnings, and especially "you might be offended" warnings, totally ridiculous. What about me? I find such wa…

> I find such warnings an insult to my intelligence and a trivialization of people's personal responsibility How so? If an article says "trigger warning: (rape/Mohammed/spiders/flashing lights)", then people who don't want to be exposed to those things (e.g. due to PTSD, religion, phobias, epilepsy - or simply because it upsets them and they don't particularly want to be upset right now) can choose not to read it. Ho…

See this comment [1] for some cites to articles discussing research showing that trigger warnings probably cause more harm than good to the people they are trying to help.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8801995

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny statement. Where was Christianity in year 1,500?

If you look at the century centered on 1500: Just finishing 400 years of named-as-such Crusades, conquering much of the world in the name of Christ, violently repressing non-Christians in the areas it controlled, and getting started with religious wars between various factions of western Christianity which would be particularly prominent through the 17th Century.

Indeed. It is almost like it is a political tool used to mould and shape the actions of people to the whim of those who have the ability to control the message

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have it both ways. You either believe there are invisible, magic beings or you don't. Well, yes and no. A lot of people (most?) kinda-sorta believe, but have doubts about the weirdness of some of the more unlikely and/or extreme beliefs. The vast people don't have enough faith to strap on a suicide vest or behead someone, even in Islam. For most "believers", religion is a consolation when you think about Gr…

This is exactly the sort of wishy-washy point of view that is as culpable as the extremist one. Here is a fact: there is no reason -- none -- to think that there exists an invisible, magic being in the sky that concerns itself with things going on here on earth. Unfortunately, for reasons that are hard for me to understand, it has become pro forma to pretend that it's just fine if adults talk and act as if it is, eve…

> Unfortunately, for reasons that are hard for me to understand, it has become pro forma to pretend that it's just fine if adults talk and act as if it is, even if they only "kinda-sorta" believe it.

We act like it's just fine to believe in make-belief things because our society is built upon the concept that it is; you're free to believe in anything you like, be it a God, Santa Claus, or pixie-dust unicorns. Our society functions as well as it does because of the presumption that you're free to think and feel whatever you like. Otherwise, trying to prevent people from believing in magical sky fairies quickly transforms into preventing them from believing in forms of government other than democracy, to creation theories other than the big bang, to the political ideologies of any party other than the one in power- and the progress and betterment of society in all areas grinds to a halt.

We've built a society predicated on the notion that you can't prevent people from having stupid ideas without preventing them from having brilliant ones as well- and it's proven an overall good approach so far.

The problem isn't with ideas, it's with the way you apply those ideas to your behavior in the physical world. You're free to believe in unicorns as long as you don't try to stab an aluminium horn into a horse's snout in an attempt to coax them out of hiding, just as you're free to believe in Jesus as long as you don't use it to force me to denounce the teachings of Buddha.

You're free to mock silly ideas people have -- including the concept of an omnipotent deity, if you find that idea silly; but the reason we pretend it's fine for those people to hold those ideas is because it IS.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#466
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see ... Freedom of speech ... the answer is "No". Every other religion, and atheism, and every government party, and ... Don't get this treatment. Just on page two of the newspaper in front of me is a depiction of green party voters as idiots. Apparently they're all women, ugly, fat and insane. This depiction is done to denounce what boils down to the actions of a city official. Should I write the paper complai…

As far as Freedom of speech... yeah, he can have it. As can I, and I'm using my freedom of speech to call out ignorance. Denouncing all Muslims is utterly Bigoted, especially when you consider how much in the minority the violent Wahhabist are in the great scheme of Islam. Denounce Muslims all you want... I'm not going to stop you. Yeah, you have freedom of speech. But instead, I'll use _my_ freedom of speech to coun…

> Erm... thats not what I'm talking about. When Irish Catholics Gasoline Bomb British cities, people don't use the actions of the violent IRA as a denunciation of Christianity as a whole.

Firstly I would argue that other people in this thread doing just that. Well usually not the actions of the IRA, though the terrorist attacks against abortion clinics are mentioned (they were against buildings, of course, not people), and things like the crusades or the founding of America. Usually to advance the case of atheism by implying moral equivalence of all religions, and of course neglecting that atheists, specifically 20th century communist state atheists are by far the biggest terrorists and warmongers in history, certainly where death toll is considered. Christianity is in fact pretty far down the list when it comes to deadly ideologies. Certainly far below atheism.

Examples from just this thread:

> Don't forget Islam and Christianity along with many other religions also actively promotes violence. In the west we tend to whitewash things, but for a less controversial example if you look at say Peter Pain or fairy tales there very different pre Disneyfication.

> If you look at the century centered on 1500: Just finishing 400 years of named-as-such Crusades, conquering much of the world in the name of Christ, violently repressing non-Christians in the areas it controlled, and getting started with religious wars between various factions of western Christianity which would be particularly prominent through the 17th Century.

> Western christianity didn't leave all violence behind, see for example anti-abortion violence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_S....

And so on ...

Secondly, an answer to that I often hear is that that's because making the case that Jesus was a terrorist is utterly impossible. An annoyance to the government, sure. A rebel ... if you seriously stretch the truth, you can probably make him a rebel. Making the case that muhammad was a terrorist (leader), sending out assassins, raiding parties and the like ... doesn't seem very hard at all. Not sure if he ever sent out suicide attackers though.

This is also the story you keep hearing about terrorist recruiters. There's a reason terrorist recruitment amongst muslims works much better than among, say, christians or hindus or buddhists or ..., and that reason is differences in the ideology.

But all of these facts are beside the point. Our society cannot possibly tolerate even a tiny minority of terrorists (and it will get worse over time : just think of what might happen if we discover portable and easy fusion power while having a small minority of terrorists among ourselves). Right now we still have margin, but it's blatantly obvious that that margin is eroding over time.

Equally plain is that there is a breaking point where moral, social and political arguments are completely beside the point. Given the public reaction to this attack, I don't think we're that close yet, but we're getting closer. People would not respond at all if they didn't think it a threat, so in that view the demonstration is an escalation, even though I doubt Al Qaeda sees it as such. Also I'd be willing to bet that the French police, whether the agent is muslim or not, will effectively treat muslims worse because of what happened to Ahmed Merabet. It is no different from what happens if the mafia kills a police agent, but of course it will be felt by innocents just the same.

But when demonstrating fails to stop terrorism and new attacks occur, public opinion will shift to include other solutions to terrorism. It seems to me we are maybe half a dozen shifts away from attacking groups ... Of course there are 4-5 terror attacks by muslims per week (thursday ... Charlie Hebdo, friday ... massive attack and massacre against a Nigerian town, Saturday ... suicide bombings one in a public market in Nigeria and one in Lebanon (Tripoli), Sunday ... two people beheaded on tape in Zuweid, Egypt). At that rate it could happen suddenly and really, really quickly.

If you think about WWII and later the cold war, it would absolutely not be the first time that even America's state turns against minority ideologies that exist in their population, and the same is true in other countries. It's not like more than a tiny minority of US-Japanese would kill for the emperor, for instance.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#467
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the sort of wishy-washy point of view that is as culpable as the extremist one. Here is a fact: there is no reason -- none -- to think that there exists an invisible, magic being in the sky that concerns itself with things going on here on earth. Unfortunately, for reasons that are hard for me to understand, it has become pro forma to pretend that it's just fine if adults talk and act as if it is, eve…

> Unfortunately, for reasons that are hard for me to understand, it has become pro forma to pretend that it's just fine if adults talk and act as if it is, even if they only "kinda-sorta" believe it. We act like it's just fine to believe in make-belief things because our society is built upon the concept that it is; you're free to believe in anything you like, be it a God, Santa Claus, or pixie-dust unicorns. Our soc…

I agree that it's "fine." I wasn't questioning the right to hold any particular view. I'm just arguing that it would be better if we held belief in fairy tales and belief in traditional god(s) to the same standard.

It would be disingenuous to say that you would be willing to hand over the keys to a nuclear reactor or have brain surgery performed by a person who claims to genuinely believe in fairy tales, without pause. Religion should be no different. It is equally ludicrous, no more, no less.

My point is that religion is held to a very different standard, in a sociological sense.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#468
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as Freedom of speech... yeah, he can have it. As can I, and I'm using my freedom of speech to call out ignorance. Denouncing all Muslims is utterly Bigoted, especially when you consider how much in the minority the violent Wahhabist are in the great scheme of Islam. Denounce Muslims all you want... I'm not going to stop you. Yeah, you have freedom of speech. But instead, I'll use _my_ freedom of speech to coun…

> Erm... thats not what I'm talking about. When Irish Catholics Gasoline Bomb British cities, people don't use the actions of the violent IRA as a denunciation of Christianity as a whole. Firstly I would argue that other people in this thread doing just that. Well usually not the actions of the IRA, though the terrorist attacks against abortion clinics are mentioned (they were against buildings, of course, not people…

>>> This is also the story you keep hearing about terrorist recruiters. There's a reason terrorist recruitment amongst muslims works much better than among, say, christians or hindus or buddhists or ..., and that reason is differences in the ideology.

You're so blinded by bigotry I bet you can't even tell the difference from an extremist Wahhabist Muslim and my Shiite next-door neighbor.

And you can't even admit to me that these two people have vastly differing philosophies and vastly different interpretations of the Koran. Quit denouncing Islam in general and start seeing the world for the complicated mess that it is.

I'm telling you the difference in ideology. Its called Extremist Wahhabist Islam. Again though, even this is a bit of an oversimplification as a good chunk of US allies in the middle east are in fact Wahhabists as well, and they're not violently attacking us. (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. etc.)

Denouncing all of Islam is ridiculously ignorant. Denouncing all of Christianity is also ignorant (because the many sects of Christianity basically have nothing to do with each other outside of an event that happened 2015 years ago). You are defending bigotry and ignorance.

>>> Our society cannot possibly tolerate even a tiny minority of terrorists

Why don't you google American history? I mean, 1960s has an assassinated President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States...

The majority of Terrorist attacks within the US is... surprise... not Muslim related. This is a historical fact.

The last hostage situation in my town was by a Neo-Nazi, no joke. He got a few shots, killed a few security guards and had to be gunned down by the Police. Leftist Eco-terrorists have bombed labs. Anti-abortionists are shooting doctors and also bombing clinics.

Even if you Genocided all Muslims, the US will continue to have terrorists try to make points. The issue of terrorism is completely independent of Islam.

So stop being a Bigot, open your eyes to the facts. If you're gonna denounce Islam, do it correctly. Extreme Wahhabist Islam is a bad philosophy... growing in popularity. (ISIS, Al Qaeda).

But outside of ISIS / Al Qaeda inspired Wahhabists, Muslims are actually quite peaceful within the US.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it makes things worse. The idea that you have to tiptoe and thought police yourself around some group of people is sure way to antagonize part of the society against that group.

You do have to do that, at all times. It's called "being a functioning member of society" – and that means being considerate of other people's views and feelings, as ridiculous as they may be. Everybody does this, all of the time (well, maybe some people don't. Those people are usually dicks.) Remember The Guardian isn't a satirical magazine, but a newspaper. It doesn't have the defence against purposeful offence tha…

If you are a newspaper you have to write news. If you care about peoples feelings, they should create a tumblr blog instead.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#470
post #4

> Warning: this article contains the image of the magazine cover, which some may find offensive. It's the first time I've seen something like this on Guardian; I don't even remember it on articles discussing rape, murder or such, which is usually where "trigger warning" applies. Personally, I find such trigger warnings, and especially "you might be offended" warnings, totally ridiculous. What about me? I find such wa…

What are the costs of trigger warnings, compared to the benefits? It seems like a blatantly worthwhile tradeoff to me.

Trigger warnings are a form of censorship because it makes it much more expensive to talk about certain tropics (mentally) because you have to take sides (whoes concerns are worth putting a trigger warning on?) and because you weaken society to accept that other peoples actions are your responsibility - in effect you are saying that the terrorist actions are in some small part justified.
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