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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#151

Post by tinco »

amirmc wrote: post #146
base2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess police departments (if they haven't already) would be stupid enough to deploy them in a trivial situation. If your dealing with against a threat with a firearm I'm going to assume there are going to be more cops with guns in the majority of the situations. Those are the folks you don't want to set off! So if you can feel a little bit safer in a little ole MRAP you might not be inclined to start a shooting gal…

I find this attitude confusing. You're suggesting that cops are the ones who need to be made to feel safer? That by making them them feel safer they might be less likely to start shooting? Who is protecting who in this brave new world?

You're being irrational now. Of course cops need to be and feel safe. They are just humans, humans equipped with guns. Anything you can do to make sure they don't fire those guns prematurely should be done, after all, they're for protecting us.

Calling it an armored tank is exaggerating. It's basically a mobile barrier that can carry a bunch of officers. There's all kinds of nice stuff you can do with them, and frankly I think it would be kind of embarassing for a town if they couldn't get a robust all terrain vehicle to some location within a reasonable timeframe.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#152

Post by EliRivers »

base2 wrote: post #141
EliRivers wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast. If you turn up in an armoured tank, you have just escalated the situation.

I guess police departments (if they haven't already) would be stupid enough to deploy them in a trivial situation. If your dealing with against a threat with a firearm I'm going to assume there are going to be more cops with guns in the majority of the situations. Those are the folks you don't want to set off! So if you can feel a little bit safer in a little ole MRAP you might not be inclined to start a shooting gal…

On the other hand, there is evidence from other situations that when people feel safer, they simply increase the risk level. When people wear seatbelts, they drive more dangerously. Fit airbags; people drive more dangerously. Wear a helmet while cycling; people cycle more dangerously. Turn up inside an armoured tank...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#154

Post by hessenwolf »

jburwell wrote: post #2

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operation…

Does anybody else know about Thermite from the Jolly Roger's cookbook? I think that file, on a 486 laptop owned by my friend's mid-life-crisis separated father, was my life's best illicit thrill.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#156

Post by AlecSchueler »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #142
Rainymood wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...

That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.

What you're saying is correct, but just to be pedantic: police in Northern Ireland are armed at all times, and are allowed to be armed even while off duty.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#157

Post by tomohawk »

Rainymood wrote: post #116
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone interested in the video: Warning it's graphical, naturally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI To summarize, indeed he says 'Im not a murderer' while picking up his bag, just standing around. They fire the grenade, tell him to get down blabla. He never steps forward in any way, charges them or attacks, while the officers close in and put a dog on him. Seconds later he turns away and gets shot mult…

And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...

And the problem with police not having guns is amply demonstrated by the recent terror in France. The first police to respond were unarmed.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#158

Post by Retric »

dalke wrote: post #144
Spooky23 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops make crazy money. A relative is a lieutenant, make $120k, and overtime brings that up to almost $200k. If he doesn't make the next promotion in a year or two, he'll be retiring at 42 making around $100k. Unless you work for some hick department, a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area, and unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old. That said, it's a brutal job that t…

"Cops" is a broad term. For police officers in general, $120K/year base salary is extremely high, and not representative of the average. To get your conclusion you have to compare the highest paying jobs for police officers with the average paying jobs for software developers. Here are more details from the BLS about 'Police and Sheriff's Patrol Officers' for 2013: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm mean an…

Your ignoring the value of an early pension with Heathcoverage that can easily add 30+% to base pay. Also, coders rarely qualify for overtime so that can be a 50% pay cut right there based on 1.5x to 2.0x pay during overtime.

Now adjust for cost of living and taxes which hammer the Bay Area coder's the disposable income and things don't look nearly as good as you might think.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#159

Post by easytiger »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #156
k-mcgrady wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.

What you're saying is correct, but just to be pedantic: police in Northern Ireland are armed at all times, and are allowed to be armed even while off duty.

And yet practically no police use of firearms is recorded. They have to declare each time they unholster the weapon

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#160

Post by k-mcgrady »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #156
k-mcgrady wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.

What you're saying is correct, but just to be pedantic: police in Northern Ireland are armed at all times, and are allowed to be armed even while off duty.

Sure, I'm from NI so aware of that. It's a unique situation though and I thought it best to leave out rather than confuse my point that there are police forces that work without firearms.
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