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Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

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Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#131
post #36
post #10

Yeah, as much as I like the concept of bitcoin (and the blockchain), I don't see adoption becoming anything more than anecdotal. No interest rate, and you have to secure it yourself? No thanks. My "big bad bank" guarantees me at least a small interest in saving money, and if my card is stolen, I get a new one in 24 hours and all transactions are cancelled. I'm happy to pay some transaction fees ("extortion!") to get…

I think it is expected that relatively new currencies have a turbulent period of a certain time. And as for interest, here in the Netherlands it is less than inflation so you loose money (interest on savings accounts is about 1%, inflation is between 1 and 2% over the past years). Bitcoin has or will have its niche, perhaps it will not be for your savings but sharing money with friends using a bitcoin wallet app is b…

Has there ever been a time and place where interest on savings accounts was above inflation? I rather doubt it.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#132
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be mistaken here, the day your bank disappear all your deposits and interests disappear with it. You probably this cannot happen which is what people believe until it happened to them, and this happened all around the world. In Europe a 2013 law is now in effect which basically states no more bank bail-outs, from now on it will be bail-ins. In other words if a bank fails it will use its customer's deposits to…

Not in the US. If a bank fails, the FDIC will insure each account for 200 or 400k (can't remember which).

I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said, isn't FDIC an insurance company set up to act when your bank disappear with your money you had there ?

What if your bank is not a member of FDIC ?

It's sort of what the European Union has with those bail ins, deposits are guaranteed up to 100k but this comes from inside the bank, first from shareholders and creditors then larger accounts. Makes sense that the public should not have to pay for the failure of a private banking entity.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#133
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. To me, the biggest flaw of bitcoin is that you have to constantly spend energy on it (as in computation power / burn coal) for it to remain viable. As soon as enough people get tired of throwing away money at their miners someone can pull a 51% attack, so everyone must put more energy into their miners to protect their investment... forever. Over time the amount of energy wasted by bitcoin could…

Do you have any idea how much energy, work and time is being spent on the infrastructure of regular currencies? Minting, ATMs, secure transport, brank branches, all kind of mainframe dinosaurs running 40 year old COBOL code? Even if scaled up to global usage, I very much doubt Bitcoin mining would be worse.

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

the hash rate doesn't grow on trees.

why the hell would you doubt it would be worse? it does 7 transactions per second.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinati...

here's on estimate: Bitcoin Mining Uses $15 Million's Worth Of Electricity Every Day

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#134
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no grounds to say that BTC should be a superior store of value. Aside from its very public history of being an absolutely abysmal store of value, it also has no central bank tending its value, as fiat currencies do, and no substantial trade denominated in it, which is what gives fiat currencies value in forex markets. It is solely a speculative vehicle. It sucks at commerce and it sucks at investment. Bitco…

I think you're attacking somewhat of a weak-man: the people saying Bitcoin as it is valued right now is any sort of store of value (and there are, indeed, such people) are obviously slightly insane. But in a long-term sense—an imagined future where all the speculative value has gone out of Bitcoin and it is now just "worth what it is worth"—it would make a fairly good store of value, in exactly the same way gold woul…

A store of value must be such over any given timeframe. If the balance in your savings account is worth $100 today, $50 in three months, $150 in six months, and $75 in a year, then it is a terrible store of value -- regardless of whether it's worth $200 two years from now.

Similarly, talking about imagined futures is not a convincing way to defend a currency as a store of value. If you have to posit that your money will still be there iff A, B, and C are true, then you're not going to park your money in that particular stall.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#136
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks can already transfer fund between themselves electronically and efficiently. And a bank account is exactly storing paper currency digitally. Again, I don't see what the innovation here is, except the technical aspects (the blockchain as a distributed system is very clever).

> Banks can already transfer fund between themselves electronically and efficiently. And a bank account is exactly storing paper currency digitally. Sure, but it doesn't matter what benefits Bitcoin offers to banks (although I do think you are overlooking a few). If banks ever were to support BTC denominated accounts, it would be because of consumer demand, not because Bitcoin is more efficient for them to store/tran…

Unlike the baking systems "digital currency" which can be confiscated from its owner or it owner prevented from using it in certain situations (see Wikileaks) bitcoin give you complete control over your own hard earned money and the causes you choose to support.

It may not be much of a currency at the moment since banks are attempting hard to prevent its use but the freedom it gives you outweighs the risk of it being stolen if you are not careful.

Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice.

It would also be potentially beneficial for the user since if you could purchase things with bitcoin at your local store the owner wouldn't have to pay the bank or Visa a small fee to make a transaction. That saving could be passed along to you as a reduction in price.

Now if there were any decently run services out there that could secure the average users wallets the market would pick up very fast. The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is all the hackers stealing the bitcoins and giving it a bad reputation in the news.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean 'a bank account is exactly storing paper currency digitally'?

A bank account is numbers in a computer saying that you have $x. You have access to digital money which you can convert to paper money at a bank branch/ATM or one of their partners but until you do so you hold digital currency.

No, you hold an IOU from the bank, which is not really the same.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#138
post #10

Yeah, as much as I like the concept of bitcoin (and the blockchain), I don't see adoption becoming anything more than anecdotal. No interest rate, and you have to secure it yourself? No thanks. My "big bad bank" guarantees me at least a small interest in saving money, and if my card is stolen, I get a new one in 24 hours and all transactions are cancelled. I'm happy to pay some transaction fees ("extortion!") to get…

It's worse than that. To me, the biggest flaw of bitcoin is that you have to constantly spend energy on it (as in computation power / burn coal) for it to remain viable. As soon as enough people get tired of throwing away money at their miners someone can pull a 51% attack, so everyone must put more energy into their miners to protect their investment... forever. Over time the amount of energy wasted by bitcoin could…

I'd like something like Foldcoin where your proof-of-work is actually doing something beside keeping my home warm inefficiently.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#139
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. To me, the biggest flaw of bitcoin is that you have to constantly spend energy on it (as in computation power / burn coal) for it to remain viable. As soon as enough people get tired of throwing away money at their miners someone can pull a 51% attack, so everyone must put more energy into their miners to protect their investment... forever. Over time the amount of energy wasted by bitcoin could…

Do you have any idea how much energy, work and time is being spent on the infrastructure of regular currencies? Minting, ATMs, secure transport, brank branches, all kind of mainframe dinosaurs running 40 year old COBOL code? Even if scaled up to global usage, I very much doubt Bitcoin mining would be worse.

Yes, bitcoin mining would be worse. Provably worse.

As computers get better, traditional applications, like databases, perform better and you can either serve more customers, use cheaper (and often more efficient hardware), or do nothing and use your outdated hardware.

With bitcoin, your enemy is not the performance of the raw work you are doing (you can hash better), but the fact that everyone else also has these increases. Because of that, the limiting factor is not performance, but cost, and so over time the average cost of the bitcoin network will not go down like the cost of centralized systems do.

Let's do a thought experiment: Let's imagine that instantly all computers get 100 times faster but it costs 10 times the energy to run these faster machines (not actually that unrealistic) and the cost becomes 10 times cheaper.

Traditional centralized banks can simply use a 10th of their existing hardware to have no energy-cost increase but a 10 times increase in customers they can serve. Sure, it's a bureaucracy, so it'll roll out slowly, but they're saving money too so maybe a little faster.

Bitcoin, everyone will simply buy 10 times as much hardware since it's cheaper and they want to get a bigger bit of the pie (mining reward) before everyone else manages to buy all their hardware. You now have an equilibrium in terms of equipment cost reached again, but suddenly the hash-rate is 1000 times more and the energy consumption is 100 times more.

The above might sound a little too theoretical, but if you look at the increase in hash rate and estimates for power usage of cpus, then gpus, and then asics, you'll see that in general power consumption for bitcoin constantly increases.

You're arguing that the existing cost of banks / the existing system is high because it's legacy. Your argument doesn't say "and it's constantly, and provably, going to waste more energy as hardware gets more cost-efficient". Even if you want to claim that banks are currently less efficient (which I doubt they are), I hope the above convinces you that bitcoin over time will constantly use more energy thus resulting in an obviously more wasteful result, while banks and other centralized systems can take advantage of improvements and thus become more cost and power efficient over time.

Re: Bitcoin crashes over 25% in 24 hours, under $180

#140
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people(in western nations) learn about it and respond almost unanimously with 'Meh'. I have very mundane needs, and I've never figured out a compelling case for me to use bitcoin. In general, it's always been more trouble than convenience. I know there are people with exotic needs, but I think the majority of people are more like me.

When was the last time you transferred money to someone (esp. out of country), how much did it cost, and how long did it take? Now, imagine you're poor, your family lives abroad, and a $20 fee on a $500 transfer is indeed a big issue. There are usability concerns (a bitcoin ATM to deposit money and have it sent to an address would be nice) but the use case of near-zero, same-day money transfers is enormous. In the af…

yeah so that's why transferwise exists
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