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Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

theguardian.com

451–460 of 489 posts

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the Guardian's credit, they did actually publish the cover. As did Libération in France. US news outlets, as well as some UK outlets, and certainly many more elsewhere including France, cannot be said to have done as much, e.g.: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/arts/international/charlie... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1134...

Right, I was a bit disappointed that the BBC had two separate articles on the cover, but neither included a picture of it.

Perhaps the role of a public broadcaster makes things different. My understanding was that the CBC's decision not to run cartoons of the prophet Mohammad was based on their institutional duty to be inclusive to all Canadians. Ultimately they deemed they can sufficiently report this news without publishing material that will be offensive to a large portion of Canadians on religious grounds.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerance is not just "allowing" people to believe something, then thinking them insane or idiots and treating them as such. "Treating them as such", maybe not; it certainly can include thinking that certain beliefs are insane. I'd say, in its best forms, it doesn't include dismissing out-of-hand everything from followers of a particular belief system because you believe some elements of that belief system are insa…

> "Treating them as such", maybe not Well, I think, practically speaking, it would be exceedingly difficult to think someone an idiot or outright insane, yet not have that impact the way we treat them. And, it would be hard to separate a belief to which someone adheres his/her life from that person; and instead just judge that belief insane without judging the person the same. More specifically, I think the degree to…

I think that there is a semantic issue here. What you seem to be calling "true tolerance" seems to be what is frequently called "acceptance" by people that argue that tolerance is not all that is deserved by certain groups.

And I agree that in many cases it is appropriate to go beyond tolerance to acceptance, but tolerance is more broadly warranted, even in some cases where acceptance is not.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#453
post #115
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely those faggots need to be condemned/punished/killed/whatever This is exactly what is wrong with people that hold your point of view. You privledge religion as something sacred and then go on to be homophobic and encourage the use of violence as a form of punishment. This is a common theme from people the defend religion and it's pedestal. If you want to claim that views are views you need to put everything on…

I think no religion preaches violence, including Islam. Its the followers that have their own interpretations.. Do we relate the acts of Hitler to Christianity?

>Do we relate the acts of Hitler to Christianity?

At the risk of going slightly off topic, quoting Hitler:

“I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were."

And to quote the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie:

"Without centuries of Christian antisemitism, Hitler's passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed...because for centuries Christians have held Jews collectively responsible for the death of Jesus."

So the acts may indeed have been related. Not so much to the teachings of Jesus but to the various churches that followed.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#454
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Race is an immutable characteristic. Actually, its not. The term "race" refers to two things (which people often fail to recognize are two different things) -- self-identity with a particular group -- which can change -- or an external, social perceived association with a particular group -- which can also change. > You are responsible for the memes you host and propagate Group identity (both self-identification an…

I couldn't disagree more. Identity doesn't really put a finger on it. If identity was a sufficient condition, then identifying myself as an RTS Gamer would make those who play RTS games a "race". That's absurd. Race is a dubious concept to begin with, but if we hope to salvage any useful semantics the only sane way forward would be to define race as those things about you that don't change when Jor-El puts you on a s…

> If identity was a sufficient condition, then identifying myself as an RTS Gamer would make those who play RTS games a "race".

Race describes one of two things:

1. Self-identification in a class socially constructed to be a "race", and 2. Externally perceived membership in a class socially constructed as a "race".

Ethnicity is identical, but with "race" replaced with "ethnicity". The distinction between "race" and "ethnicity" being quite arbitrary.

> Race is a dubious concept to begin with, but if we hope to salvage any useful semantics the only sane way forward would be to define race as those things about you that don't change when Jor-El puts you on a spaceship and ships you off to Earth to be raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent.

I'm not interesting in redefining race to make it a category that you find useful, I'm talking about what it actually means as it is used -- which does not refer to an immutable trait. (Though it does refer to a trait that is not easy to change, and which -- especially in the external form -- is very hard for the subject to change, absent moving to a different society with different conceptualization of race.)

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Treating them as such", maybe not Well, I think, practically speaking, it would be exceedingly difficult to think someone an idiot or outright insane, yet not have that impact the way we treat them. And, it would be hard to separate a belief to which someone adheres his/her life from that person; and instead just judge that belief insane without judging the person the same. More specifically, I think the degree to…

I think that there is a semantic issue here. What you seem to be calling "true tolerance" seems to be what is frequently called "acceptance" by people that argue that tolerance is not all that is deserved by certain groups. And I agree that in many cases it is appropriate to go beyond tolerance to acceptance, but tolerance is more broadly warranted, even in some cases where acceptance is not.

Perhaps it is semantic. But, when you mention "acceptance" it actually seems odder still. It underscores that acceptance is something that one group (presumably the majority) confers upon another (presumably some minority).

And, I think, "why does this have to be conferred vs. being the default state"? It brings to mind the difference between granting certain rights vs. recognizing that they are truly inalienable and exist naturally.

With that in mind, I can't think of a case wherein acceptance is not "warranted", unless it involves harm to others or infringement on their rights. So, I'm not sure that acceptance is the right term, though, to your point, there may yet be one better than "true tolerance".

Of course, everyone is free to not accept or be tolerant or whatever we want to call it. I'm just arguing that is healthier to truly coexist and that there are implications to our choices that, at least in part, serve to define the world in which we live.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#456
post #288
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only non-violent religions I know of are Jainism and Theravāda Buddhism. The holy books of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all contain passages encouraging their followers to torture, kill, and otherwise harm non-believers. Mainstream adherents followed these directives for millennia. It's taken centuries of conflict with enlightenment values to relegate such views to extremists. After September 11th, I read the…

I've studied Quran too and a bit of comparative religion and nowhere did I find any instance where it preaches violence. Look on the life of Prophet Muhammad for instance (you'll find plenty of non-Muslim accounts on His life that are non-biased) never you'll find any instance where he punished someone just because he ridiculed him. Forget about prophet, just when Europe was going through the dark ages and Muslims we…

>never you'll find any instance where he punished someone just because he ridiculed him.

Abu 'Afak seems close. He wrote a politically charged poem against Muhammad and was killed. Perhaps not just for ridicule, more for political opposition but even so it seems bad form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_%27Afak

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there is a semantic issue here. What you seem to be calling "true tolerance" seems to be what is frequently called "acceptance" by people that argue that tolerance is not all that is deserved by certain groups. And I agree that in many cases it is appropriate to go beyond tolerance to acceptance, but tolerance is more broadly warranted, even in some cases where acceptance is not.

Perhaps it is semantic. But, when you mention "acceptance" it actually seems odder still. It underscores that acceptance is something that one group (presumably the majority) confers upon another (presumably some minority). And, I think, "why does this have to be conferred vs. being the default state"? It brings to mind the difference between granting certain rights vs. recognizing that they are truly inalienable and…

> It underscores that acceptance is something that one group (presumably the majority) confers upon another (presumably some minority).

Its more something one individual bestows on other individuals. That a group can be said to be doing it or not is simply an aggregate description of the actions of individuals in the group.

> And, I think, "why does this have to be conferred vs. being the default state"?

Whether acceptance, tolerance, or intolerance or the default state, there is still utility in all three distinct terms to describe states that exist in the world.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#458
post #201
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if HN as a community cannot accept a simple, logical and apparently non-offending statement against christianity. Then it really needs to declare it as a policy, and endorse Islamic bashing officially!

@throwaway90446: Well I'll be more happy to accept this, if anyone here had quoted any verse from Quran (taken with context). But sadly people believe what they have heard, without doing much research.

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."

Peaceful stuff eh? "This verse is often cited to justify attacks of Muslims on non-Muslims both in classical exegesis and in contemporary jihadism" according to Wikipedia.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#459
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never heard of CH a week ago, and Bolling's interpretation of CH's cartooning may be more accurate than Secco's, and it was an interesting perspective. But I think that Bolling's conclusions are wrong, except perhaps when he rebuts Secco's use of the word "vapid". Bolling says that the only reasonable reaction to the murders is to defend free speech. No. Defending free speech is necessary, but it's not at all cle…

What exactly do you see as Sacco's proposal? Maybe it's over my head, but as far as I can see his comic basically says that in response to the murders we should focus on not offending muslims.

I don't see anything in Sacco that says "we should not offend". I think Sacco's piece as a whole says three things, and I think that Bolling agrees with the first, rebuts the second, and ignores the third. From the tone of your question, I infer that you're asking me about that "third", but I'll just get the first two out of the way first.

First: Of course we should defend free speech! (Okay, good, glad we got that out of the way. We all agree, yay.)

Second: CH is "tweaking the nose of muslims", and that's "vapid". (Bolling says that's not what CH is doing. I have no idea if Bolling is correct, but it seems plausible. So let's assume Bolling has rebutted Sacco on this.)

Third:

Thinking critically about geopolitics would be more interesting and constructive than "tweaking .. noses". There might be geopolitical and sociological reasons why there exist so many more Muslim-affiliated suicide bombers than there are first-world/modern/white/Christian/etc suicide bombers.

Maybe the issue isn't that Islam teaches violence. I mean, there are plenty of exhortations to violence in Christian history, in Western history, in "modernity". And my understanding is that much of the Quran and the Hadith is calls to peace and non-violence. So what's the deal? Maybe the issue is that there's a lot of inequality in the world (and the inequality is actively pursued by the empowered, not just an accident), and this breeds resentment, and breeds tribal thinking, and Muslims as a group have relatively little overlap with the empowered class (House of Saud notwithstanding). Maybe that sort of us-vs-the-West tribal thinking is the only source of empowerment that certain people can find in their lives, and some tiny fraction of them are borderline-insane young men who jump over the cliff into insanity and strap on vests. And if that's all true, sure it's easy and correct to say "no matter what their excuse, suicide bombing is evil". Fine, I agree. So what? Given the choice between labelling a past murderer as "evil", or preventing a future murder, which is more important to you?

If we agree that violence and terrorism are a problem to which we'd like a solution, what forms of solution can you imagine? Can we realistically eradicate a religion? Alternately, can we realistically eradicate the spectrum of extremism within a religion? How about can we build a police state that will actually prevent this kind of thing, and if we can should we? Or can we just wall off all the crazies and not let them into our countries, and if we can, should we (with the collateral effect of maybe walling some innocents in with the crazies)? Personally I think the answer to all four of those is a very obvious "No". So do we have an alternative? I don't know if an alternative exists, but I suggest that if it does exist, then reducing inequality seems likely to be a prerequisite.

The last two paragraphs of mine are an attempt to spell out the last two panels of Sacco's strip. "We can try to think about why the world is the way it is, and what it is about Muslims in this time and place that makes them unable to laugh off a mere image. And if we answer 'because something is deeply wrong with them' - certainly something was deeply wrong with the killers - then let us drive them from their homes and into the sea. For that is going to be far easier than sorting out how we fit in each other's world".

So, in summary, Sacco's third point as I see it: Yeah yeah we all agree in free speech, but maybe if we stop foaming at the mouth about how evil a group is, and cultivate some empathy, we can find a solution that doesn't amount to genocide.

On a personal note, I find it very hard to have empathy with religious people of any stripe. But I am well aware that my position on religion makes me a very very tiny minority.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#460
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's merely an uninsightful and flawed analogy with a deeply wrong conclusion. How so?

Lets count some ways: - Religion is different than race, because race is something that a person is born with and cannot possibly change. - He tries to make deliberately offensive panels that are supposed to provoke the same reaction in people as Charlie Hebdo's comics supposedly provoke in muslims, but he falls short by a long shot. The reaction to his deliberately offensive panels is "meh", not outrage, which compl…

I already addressed some of this in my cousin-comment, and I think unclebucknasty addresses a lot of it, but anyway...

1) Yes, he depicts CH as mocking for the sake of mocking. Perhaps islamophobic-specific, perhaps just whoever-we-can-hurt. In a recent comment filoeleven links a Greenwald piece that characterizes CH the same way (I think the Greenwald piece is great overall). I dunno anything about CH's context, but if you and Bolling are correct about CH (and it seems very plausible that you are), then Sacco and Greenwald are wrong about CH. Fine.

1b) What's most-plausible about Bolling's thesis is that some of CH's "jokes", including tomorrow's cover, just do not make as much sense if CH's whole goal is offense. They make a lot more sense if CH is trying to mock the whole dialog (both the islamophobic side, and also the extremist islamist side).

2) "Free speech as long as you like what is said is not free speech." Yes, absolutely. Even if CH is just trying to offend... even if CH is just trying to offend whoever they think is most vulnerable... tough shit, that's free speech. Defend it.

3) I'm not seeing how it's patronising. Again, I don't think Sacco is saying "don't offend", I think Sacco is saying "if all you're doing is offending, that's vapid; there are more constructive things we could do" (see my other comment). But even if someone WERE to say "don't offend", there's room to say that without being patronising. It could look like this: "Hey, hypothetical-CH, you're being a dick. You shouldn't kick people when they're down. Pick on the strong, you asshole. (Though I will defend your right to say these reprehensible things you've been saying.)"

4) I'm not sure what to make of the offend-black-people and offend-jews panels. I'm not sure that the respective communities would find them "meh", though. Personally, I don't understand why blackface performances are so abhorred, but I have well taken note that they are. And I think his point about the jew panel is spot on: maybe everyone can "take the joke" today, but what about in 1933? Anyway, I'm not sure what his point is here. My suspicion is that these panels are not really relevant if you/Bolling are correct about CH's actual intent; this part of the comic is probably, as you say, an "uninsightful and flawed analogy". HOWEVER...

5) EVEN IF YOU ARE 100% CORRECT ABOUT CH..... I hope you don't dispute that CH's cartoons are being seen by everyone else as being tweaking-the-dirty-muslims. Tomorrow's print run of 10x the normal size.... who's gonna buy those up? People who understand CH's nuanced iconoclastic leftist humour? Or people who want to spit in the face of the murderers? Since it's the latter, criticism of this way of thinking is hugely relevant, and the conclusion that I attribute to him (see other comment) is still hugely relevant, without disagreeing with your claim that "He completely misjudges Charlie Hebdo and the cultural context.".

The fact is, CH is now a symbol. Luz said in an interview that this is horrible for CH, because disrupting symbols was a primary mission of CH. Well, I guess the murderers won. Sucks to be you, CH, sucks to be you. Anyway, as a symbol, now we have to fight about what it's a symbol OF, and FOR.

side note: I'm doing a lot of disagreeing with you on details, jules, but I want to note that I appreciate the respectful tone you've brought

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