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What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

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Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have a great selection of software The Debian repositories are great, but don't kid yourself: unless you're a developer, it's very likely that there are at least a handful of mission-critical apps missing from the Linux ecosystem.

Can I get an example? I am considering moving some family to Linux and I couldn't find anything they would be missing upon a cursory glance.

I used to re-install windows to my family like once a year, but then I refused to doing it anymore but I offered to install ubuntu on their machines. It's being like 4 years so far and they hardly need any maintenance from me.

IMOE the main issue are software-suites

Cad and 3D: my dad is really used to windows, and learning the linux environment was an easy step for him. He could never do the switch to open source cad alternatives. We tried using wine, but for performance we ended up keeping windows as a 2nd bootable for him to draw.

Photoshop, and Corel: I installed ubuntu to a friend who works as graphical designer. She is currently using gimp, and inkscape but she had a hard time making the switch.

Games: my son really was the most resilient to the change. He played every blizzard game, and since there aren't (wasn't ?) linux support it was a big non-stop for him. Then he moved to minecraft, and that made him reconsider the switch. He's been using linux for about 2 years already -- no windows partition at all

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#302
post #14

Instead of dowloading from Sourceforge (loaded with ads and its own devious 'installer'), CNET, Download, etc, there are no-crapware alternatives that offer more management tools as well (remembering your list of apps across machines, automated updates, discoverability): Ninite: nice, simple, installer: just select apps and let the installer do it all for you. AllMyApps: all the apps, no crapware (at least for now).…

We have much the same functionality at http://PortableApps.com/ You get an app store, an automatic app updater, an app manager, and hundreds of freeware and open source apps. All free of malware and bundleware. As a bonus, all the apps run from a single directory each, making it easy as pie to uninstall and remove all the apps settings at the same time (as opposed to bits left behind in AppData, Local AppData, the Re…

Wow, what a great site. Thanks for this link!

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#303
post #298
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft knows far more about operating system design than Microsoft. I'm sure MS research is chock full of people who could design something far, far better than Windows. The problem is twofold: (1) Convincing anyone in management that developing such a thing would be worthwhile when people are still buying the old thing in droves and when such an endeavor would have a long bootstrap/incubation period before it'd b…

>Present OSes have security models rooted in the multi-user needs of workstations and servers in the 1970s and 80s, back when the Internet was kind of a walled garden and security risks consisted mostly of students and kids playing around. Okay, what security model do you propose then? I'm curious because I don't see a security problem here. No OS security was bypassed, there was no OS bug that was exploited. This is…

I don't have a fully baked design in mind, but I could probably come up with one if I had a long time to focus on it. I do have a general framework in mind for how one might approach the question.

First and foremost, security should be a primary OS design objective and it should go into the design deep. It should be something you think about before secondary concerns like a process model, binary format, driver framework, or memory management.

Every single executing piece of code should be signed (with self-signing by the user an option of course). In that respect the app store model has it right, but I'd like to see something that ultimately puts the keys in the hands of the user. That means that a keyring is something you put down with the task manager, memory manager, etc. It's a core OS function. The ability to administrate the keyring and control permissions is also a core OS function.

Every function call outside a context should do a permission check against the certificate of the executing code. The right way to design this would be to make it work first, then figure out how to make it fast without compromising security. I think fundamental innovation would be needed here. I'm not sure exactly how this should work.

We should get away from distributing compiled code that runs straight on bare metal for most things. It might still be available as a permission, but one that would come with a warning to the effect that this could allow something to pwn your machine. Honestly I'm not sure if it's necessary. I'd look into the idea of shipping binaries as LLVM byte code and AOT compiling everything, and possibly including a secure implementation of OpenCL for really high performance computing needs.

A concept of users should be baked in from the get-go too, and should be part of the permission set of an executing context. Each user should have a key and be able to authorize other keys by signing them, etc.

So yeah, I think that's sort of a starting point. Crypto and permissions should be baked in from the get-go.

It'd also be important to think about usability from the get-go, since if it doesn't "just work" nobody will use it. UI/UX would be a challenging part of the project.

Storage is another challenge -- how to allow execution contexts to hand-off and/or share data without compromising security and without being too inefficient. The fact that storage is getting so cheap means things like copy-on-write with versioning might be baked in from the get-go to permit almost any operation to be rewound for a good period of time. So if a piece of bad code borks your work, just undo. I wonder if the whole OS could be built around a command model where things just fall off the end when they're too old? Log-structured everything? Again, not fully baked but I think it's the right general direction.

I highly doubt I am unique in thinking these things. I'm not the sharpest tack in the world and these kinds of ideas strike me as obvious results of reasoning from first principles about current OS challenges and failures.

The app store and mobile sandboxing models are steps in the right general direction but they are very, very ham-fisted compared to what I'm imagining here. They're the right ideas applied as a band-aid to fundamentally obsolete systems. They also cut the user out of the picture. I think that's because their models are ultimately too shallow and coarse-grained (and also because the vendors want control). Develop something good enough and the user can be put in the driver's seat without the machine turning into a malware cesspit. If the user authorizes a piece of bad code, just de-authorize it and it dies.

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#304
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this procedure. 1) Rebooting the computer can spread the infection. You should try to clean it with 0 reboots. Ignore safemode. Kill adwcleaner with taskmanager. 2)ComboxFix is unnecessary. Malwarebytes/ESET work most of the time, and if not there are about 3 other scans to use. Anyone who wants to buy a new laptop for speed purposes should be talked into trying an SSD first. A cheap laptop comes with…

>Kill adwcleaner with taskmanager. AdwCleaner requires a restart to finish up, as I understand it. If you know differently, I'm genuinely interested. >ComboxFix is unnecessary. Respectfully, I disagree. It's caught things that the others have missed. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but in my experience it's proven useful. Most of the time new laptops are not for speed purposes - there is a misconception that a new laptop i…

> It's caught things that the others have missed.

What other things? Did you run FSecure, Panda, ESET, Emsisoft, Avira, Avast, Herdprotect? It might be useful, but it is dangerous. It should be an absolute last ditch effort, not standard procedure.

>AdwCleaner requires a restart to finish up, as I understand it.

Try running it twice in a row without a restart. Try running it before and after a malwarebytes scan, without a restart. Does it find things?

>technical clients (say, 1 in 10) are more willing to explore SSD and appropriate RAM.

Thats why you word it "would you like me to make your computer much faster for $100 dollars. I can replace the moving parts with electrical ones."

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#305
post #248
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using the number given in the Pinegrow thread today: It is economically infeasible to pay your payment processor 5 percent instead of 3? It's annoying, sure, but infeasible?

Specifically you can't use paypal. As they say on the BBC, other payment processors are available and you have to get one that will handle the VAT for you.

You can still offer Paypal via another payment processor.

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whose fault exactly is it? People who think that software should be free, as in beer. Developers have to be paid. When people paid for software with dollars, this exchange was much more straightforward. But now people think that software should be free as in beer, which means it comes with ad software or "sponsored software" that in turns sells ads, or spies on everything you do, or something to pay the bills.

Well, I disagree. There's a ton of software that is being developed and distributed for free because the authors actually care about solving a problem. Not all software needs to be sold, not all developers do it for money. For many people money is the problem (you need to put time to get it which could be better used to build useful stuff), not the goal. Some developers choose to sell their software, and they have th…

Not all software needs to be sold,...

I'd go a bit farther: not all software can be sold. Making some extremely niche software fills that niche, but there may be a very small audience for, say, combinatory logic interpreters, or theorem provers. If we as a society demand that every piece of software be sold, and maybe the bulk of the members of the society have a weird idea that the price of something has to reflect the cost of that good plus profit, then a lot of software will never get written, and a lot of ideas won't get tried out, and a lot of niches will go unfilled.

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#307

I see a lot of comments here about Mac & Ubuntu. I run Ubuntu myself, so no disrespect intended. That said: If we all do and make everyone else do as we say, replace Windows with Ubuntu & Mac, guess what happens next? The next shitwave of shitware will come to our favourite platforms, and they will find new exploits and new creative ways to fuck us over too. This is a social problem and technology alone wont solve it…

With Ubuntu, however, you have software repositories which you use to install almost everything. So there is no need to go hunting on the internet for binaries you need. In my opinion this is one of the best security features of most Linux distro's.

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#308
post #80
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironic, considering that Apple did exactly the same, when you installed QuickTime on Windows. They tried to trick you into installing iTunes and Safari and set them as default apps. Also, it stinks that Apple has nailed iOS that shut that even as a knowledgeable user you are not able to bypass it. They did not yet dare to do the same on Mac OS, but who knows when that comes.

Apple are quite happy to trash another company's OS. The Windows iTunes experience was terrible : it ate resources, was opaque in operation, didn't always sync properly and could occasionally wipe your devices. It used to be required for OS updates. The "nailing shut" is an increasing problem for anyone that believes in a free market in software. Which isn't helped by all these sites shipping value-negative software.

If you have an ssd and more than one Apple device, each device you synch eats up about 10gb of space or more. If you have a spouse with an iPhone in addition to yours, a kid or two with itouches, then that can easily eat up 50+Gb of an ssd drive. This can be a very significant percentage of your drive!! And there's no way to change it to anything by the c drive on windows.

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#309
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple are quite happy to trash another company's OS. The Windows iTunes experience was terrible : it ate resources, was opaque in operation, didn't always sync properly and could occasionally wipe your devices. It used to be required for OS updates. The "nailing shut" is an increasing problem for anyone that believes in a free market in software. Which isn't helped by all these sites shipping value-negative software.

If you have an ssd and more than one Apple device, each device you synch eats up about 10gb of space or more. If you have a spouse with an iPhone in addition to yours, a kid or two with itouches, then that can easily eat up 50+Gb of an ssd drive. This can be a very significant percentage of your drive!! And there's no way to change it to anything by the c drive on windows.

There is a complex method of changing the backup drive by setting up symlinks.

It is user-hostile of Apple to force use of C:\

Re: What Happens When You Install the Top Download.com Apps

#310
post #303
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Present OSes have security models rooted in the multi-user needs of workstations and servers in the 1970s and 80s, back when the Internet was kind of a walled garden and security risks consisted mostly of students and kids playing around. Okay, what security model do you propose then? I'm curious because I don't see a security problem here. No OS security was bypassed, there was no OS bug that was exploited. This is…

I don't have a fully baked design in mind, but I could probably come up with one if I had a long time to focus on it. I do have a general framework in mind for how one might approach the question. First and foremost, security should be a primary OS design objective and it should go into the design deep . It should be something you think about before secondary concerns like a process model, binary format, driver frame…

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

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I don't understand how only allowing signed execution would help avoid this problem. Like you said, anyone could pay to get their company listed as a 'trusted' entity. The problem is you cant push this task to the user, because the non-technical layman user is not in a position to determine this.

If we only allow signed binaries to be loaded in memory, then we won't need IPC to pay the security tax for every function call. - given that there are probably going to be tens of thousands of them per second.

>We should get away from distributing compiled code that runs straight on bare metal for most things. [..] Honestly I'm not sure if it's necessary.

Poof, no more program debuggers, profilers, no more device drivers, no more third party file systems, no more .. you get the idea. Maybe that's not "most" things, but ask yourself how functional is an OS without the ability to load kernel mode stuff.

> Each user should have a key and be able to authorize other keys by signing them, etc.

How does that help my mom? She's just going to call me when the computer asks her "weird questions about keys and permissions". The entire point is that the average user is not the best judge of what is and isn't malware. Technically savvy users already have no issue with malware for the most part.

>Develop something good enough and the user can be put in the driver's seat without it turning into a malware safari.

Again, why would the user WANT to be in the drivers seat? They have no clue how to drive the car!

> If the user authorizes a piece of bad code, just de-authorize it and it dies.

That only tackles the problem of cleanup, which is a separate problem. By that time, the malware is already on the system and it's sent your credit card and documents to the bad guys.

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