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Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

theguardian.com

421–430 of 489 posts

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#421
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the bar need raised? It's not a competition to see who can piss off religious people the most. The point of the cartoons is to convey a message. Just take a look at the new Charlie Hebdo cover for example. They could have acted in revenge and really, really mocked Islam - and it sounds like that's what you would have done. Instead they created something quite beautiful while still exercising their right to f…

Bad ideas deserve to be mocked.

Isn't it better to teach a good idea than to mock a bad idea?

No need for a cartoon mocking the idea of mocking bad ideas...

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#422
post #4

> Warning: this article contains the image of the magazine cover, which some may find offensive. It's the first time I've seen something like this on Guardian; I don't even remember it on articles discussing rape, murder or such, which is usually where "trigger warning" applies. Personally, I find such trigger warnings, and especially "you might be offended" warnings, totally ridiculous. What about me? I find such wa…

If you get offended so easily by other people who get offended so easily, do you have a leg to stand on?

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#423
post #114
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Race is an immutable characteristic. No one could possibly change their race. It's barely a valid concept. Holding someone responsible for an inseparable part of themselves is both ill-conceived and futile. Religion is software: adopt a baby from a family with a different religion and odds are that the baby will grow into an adult having your religion. It may feel like an inseparable part of oneself, but it is not: i…

> Race is an immutable characteristic.

Actually, its not. The term "race" refers to two things (which people often fail to recognize are two different things) -- self-identity with a particular group -- which can change -- or an external, social perceived association with a particular group -- which can also change.

> You are responsible for the memes you host and propagate

Group identity (both self-identification and which buckets you put other people in) is a set of memes as much as any religion is (in fact, historically, its often been a set of memes tied to religion.)

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Mormon, but I shudder when I see the mainstream media ripping on Mormons or Scientologists. This isn't us. I think this is one of the biggest things we've lost to 9/11, decency and restraint. It was first OK to talk shit about Muslims, Towelheads (sadly many more peaceful Sikhs were victimized by actual violence than Muslims), then Scientologists, then Mormons. What the hell happened to our ideals? I recall r…

> Is Islam more violent than Christianity? (WTF kind of a question is that) > Are American blacks more criminal than whites? Aren't these questions fundamentally different? One is about a belief system, the other is about someone's physical appearance caused by their genes. Given a belief system is at least partly made by choice (assuming you have that choice), you could ask this question without being "racist". "Are…

> Given that a belief system is at least partly made by choice

An interesting point. On a purely rational and logical level, yes, they're fundamentally different, and your'e a racist if you're bashing another race.

But in reality, people's beliefs closely reflect the beliefs and values of the society they live in. While two people living in the same community might have different religions, most noticeable differences are slight.

So, in some way, for most people, religion is inherited part of one's identity. If you happen to have the luxury of being able to reflect on your life, then you might adopt another religion or develop your own set of beliefs. A majority of the world does not have that opportunity or luxury.

So, yes, while it's technically not racism, but it effectively is bigotry in most cases. I think one of the coolest things in western culture is to question authority and be willing to be introspective. I have personally learned a great deal, thru introspection and being open to at lease listening to ideas that are very different than my own. This, to me, is an awesome opportunity that freedom of speech and not silencing dissenting opinion offers us as a society.

But what has become commonplace through the umbrella "free" speech is not the introspective discussions, but it's basically now our right to attack others whose opinions, beliefs (even inherited labels like religion) differ from us. Sure we have the right to free speech, even to offend.

I deleted the rest of the comment before posting it. I realized that the analogy I was making could have sounded like blaming the victims of Charlie Hebdo for what happened. That's wrong, so I chose not to express it. I technically would have been OK, but it's not the right thing to do.

Expressing views that will obviously polarize an entire section of population, and knowingly doing so for clicks, views, ads, or whatever, is short sighted and leave us with more negativity and intellectually worse off as a society.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That certainly didn't help. But Islam still has to see its Erasmus and until then this madness will likely persist. Religion is a personal thing.

Can you name an attack on the Western world in the last 30 years that didn't involve the Wahabist / Salafi extremist sect of Muslim? There's one sect kinda-sorta preaching violence. And that is the Wahhabi Islam that followed Osama Bin Laden. Beyond that, your mainstream Shiite / Shia Muslims are rather peaceful folk within the Western World. Frances 7%+ Muslim Population is a testament to that. Its pretty much those…

> Can you name an attack on the Western world in the last 30 years that didn't involve the Wahabist / Salafi extremist sect of Muslim?

The first example that came to mind was the Unabomber - last attack was 1995, and he was explicitly opposing the technology-rich western world.

A simple google search for "terrorist attacks not muslim" brought up: http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

"only 6% of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil from 1980 to 2005 were carried out by Islamic extremists."

"In fact, a whopping 99.6% of terrorist attacks in Europe were by non-Muslim groups; a good 84.8% of attacks were from separatist groups completely unrelated to Islam. Leftist groups accounted for over sixteen times as much terrorism as radical Islamic groups. Only a measly 0.4% of terrorist attacks from 2006 to 2008 could be attributed to extremist Muslims."

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coverage of these events, with or without anti-Muslim sentiment, almost never takes the point of view that it is the fact that people are brought up to really believe that there are invisible, magic beings in the ether who care about the state of affairs on earth that is at least in part the root cause here. And that is a terrible shame because not drawing attention to that fact is a tacit endorsement of extremist be…

You can't have it both ways. You either believe there are invisible, magic beings or you don't. Well, yes and no. A lot of people (most?) kinda-sorta believe, but have doubts about the weirdness of some of the more unlikely and/or extreme beliefs. The vast people don't have enough faith to strap on a suicide vest or behead someone, even in Islam. For most "believers", religion is a consolation when you think about Gr…

This is exactly the sort of wishy-washy point of view that is as culpable as the extremist one.

Here is a fact: there is no reason -- none -- to think that there exists an invisible, magic being in the sky that concerns itself with things going on here on earth.

Unfortunately, for reasons that are hard for me to understand, it has become pro forma to pretend that it's just fine if adults talk and act as if it is, even if they only "kinda-sorta" believe it.

Well I say that it's time to start saying out loud that it's not fine, and that the judgement of anyone who says they believe it in any sense at all might need to be questioned. Just like you would question the judgement of someone who "kinda-sorta" believed anything that's obviously nonsense, like astrology or numerology or fairy tales.

And the reason that it's important to question the judgement of people who believe things that are obviously false is because they might have guns, and they might decide that it's time for someone to be shot in the head because they have offended their magic deity in the sky. And there are worse possibilities that I don't need to enumerate here.

These absurd, magical points of view won't go away until they are laughed out of the room, so let's start. Comfort and community don't trump safety.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#427
post #288
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only non-violent religions I know of are Jainism and Theravāda Buddhism. The holy books of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all contain passages encouraging their followers to torture, kill, and otherwise harm non-believers. Mainstream adherents followed these directives for millennia. It's taken centuries of conflict with enlightenment values to relegate such views to extremists. After September 11th, I read the…

I've studied Quran too and a bit of comparative religion and nowhere did I find any instance where it preaches violence. Look on the life of Prophet Muhammad for instance (you'll find plenty of non-Muslim accounts on His life that are non-biased) never you'll find any instance where he punished someone just because he ridiculed him. Forget about prophet, just when Europe was going through the dark ages and Muslims we…

> I've studied Quran too and a bit of comparative religion and nowhere did I find any instance where it preaches violence

Then you didn't read the actual Quran. I will not claim that the Quran is more violent than other holy books, but it certainly has its share of calls to violence.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take your point and agree with it but another factor you can't ignore is that there are 1.7 billion Muslims, compared to 15 million (wikipedia'd that) Mormons. Plus, I can't source it right but I have read editorials where broadsheet editors say they've been asked by the government not to print something in the interests of "national security" (IOW they don't want to cause problems with the Saudis or whoever.

I'm not Mormon, but I shudder when I see the mainstream media ripping on Mormons or Scientologists. This isn't us. I think this is one of the biggest things we've lost to 9/11, decency and restraint. It was first OK to talk shit about Muslims, Towelheads (sadly many more peaceful Sikhs were victimized by actual violence than Muslims), then Scientologists, then Mormons. What the hell happened to our ideals? I recall r…

Religion is a collection of ideas.

And bad ideas deserve to be criticized.

It's as simple as that.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#429
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine, for a case, that you meet someone that claims to believe in unicorns. Well, we're going a little too deep in mixing trivial examples with significant real-world issues, which I think, beyond a certain point, just gets us off track. Here's the main point: there are large groups of people who believe in something for which they believe there is compelling evidence. You disagree with them, based on your evide…

> Here's the main point: there are large groups of people who believe in something for which they believe there is compelling evidence. You disagree with them, based on your evidence. [...] Their belief is derived in full weight of and respect for the scientific evidence. No. There is no compelling evidence; there is even less scientific evidence (if you believe the contrary, please present it). And I don't need evid…

>There is no compelling evidence

Compelling, of course, is a subjective word. So, you mean to say that there is no evidence that compels you. But, certainly, you are aware of eyewitness accounts of, say, Jesus' life and work, as well as archaeological evidence. You can choose not to be compelled by the evidence, but you cannot say it doesn't exist. And, you obviously cannot claim that it fails to compel others.

>I fully believe that unicorns could exist. But if you claim they do exist, I will call you on your bullshit, and demand you present a proof.

It's pretty stunning that, to your mind, nothing exists unless it can be proven. Again, I take you back to that trite and cliche notion that you cannot prove your own existence.

Alone, that statement would be pseudo-philosophical mumbo-jumbo, but I say this here only because the utter paucity in what any of us knows should undermine your confidence in imposing your own beliefs at least somewhat?

But, keeping it to the physical world, you are arguing, essentially, that you can explain (or prove) each and every thing that you observe.

>No, you don't understand science. There is not faith. There are only measurements.

Measurements are mere interpretations of what is "demonstrated". There is faith in science the moment we draw a conclusion predicated upon something that we cannot fully explain, but can only observe. In fact, religion itself has served this very role for millennia.

Some of our most accepted and consequential theories (e.g. Big Bang itself) are predicated on things that we cannot yet explain. In fact, we make "allowances" for some of these things that are themselves yet proven.

Yeah, it's the best scientific explanation we have so far. But, I think it's a bit presumptuous to go bashing people over the head with it.

>This is the other part of my argument; even if we assume that the universe and everything in it was created by God, the question is, which God?

Well, I wonder, if you allow that any God created the universe, whether the discussion about which God dissolve into pure meaninglessness? That is, if you acknowledge the existence of a God that created the Universe (and you), then are you really in a position to quibble about God's nature if you're not willing to consider the "evidence" from those who claim to know?

But, any one of these, all of these, or none of these could be correct. There could be some truth that reconciles all of these, as much as some unknown about dark matter or gravity or time could unify physics.

>Occam's Razor, a mental trick commonly applied in science, suggests that all religions are false.

Yeah, I think I may have come across one of the most famous "mental tricks" in the world from time-to-time! Seriously, it actually has an interesting history with regard to religion and its namesake, who was actually a Christian. You should look it up.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't quote someone saying he was repulsed; I quoted someone saying it wasn't free speech. The two are very different statements. And I didn't say he's in favor of the assassination, either - just that he failed to distance himself from them.

Why should he have to distance himself? That notion in itself implies that his default position is showing some favour.

It's not the default position; it's - in my opinion - the implication of what he said. Criticizing the cartoonists in a moment like this reveals, if nothing else, a tremendous lack of compassion.
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