Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad • Hacker News Board

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#301

Post by ca98am79 » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:44 PM UTC

rauljara wrote: post #91

I found it quite moving that the theme of the cover was forgiveness. Fighting extremist hate with more hate has a best case of only shifting which people suffer because it, and a worse case that is truly horrible to contemplate. I know saying you forgive your attackers will almost certainly not make the world a better place. But there were so many reactions that could have added to the fire. It's very hopeful to see…

I agree with you almost completely - except I do think that forgiveness definitely will and does make the world a better place. It just did - you and I and countless other people have been moved and inspired by this gesture of forgiveness. How can that not make the world better?

If they had instead requested vengeance - it would continue the cycle of misery, hate and destruction.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#302

Post by austenallred » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:44 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #300

austenallred wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official response by the LDS church to the Book of Mormon was this: "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ." [1] Not exactly what you would call "backlash." Then the church took out an ad in the playbill. [2] [1] http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-reg…

> And I'm sure people openly mock the temple ceremony somewhere -- that would cause any Mormons to kill two dozen people. Didn't you mean 'wouldn't' ?

Yes, I did. I was kind of editing it as I went, and ended up cutting that part out. My apologies.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#303

Post by kbart » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:46 PM UTC

_nedR wrote: post #149

davexunit wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone has to walk on eggshells around Islam, or risk being labeled racist or "Islamaphobic".

Beg your pardon. I find the exact opposite as true. People today, are generally careful and sensitive about what they say about Jews or black people, because they don't want to be labelled as anti-semitic or racist. Muslims seems to be the only minority you can criticize and be politically correct. Consider the following statement : "Maybe most Jews are peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing zio…

Exactly. Glenn Greenwald posted a great article on Intercept about this topic yesterday. Worth reading.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#304

Post by unclebucknasty » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #273

unclebucknasty wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users do push comments down by pushing others up. If we are trying to surface interesting content, then what more do we need? And, why should your simple personal disagreement result in a comment being pushed down unless what we want is groupthink instead of earnest discussion? The proper thing to do, if one cares enough to express disagreement, is to explain why he/she disagrees. Then, there's the fact that downvote…

I can't down vote this particular comment of yours as it is a reply to me, but wouldn't if I could. But I've no problem if others wish to. Or if they want to up vote you, also fine by me. Other than caring about other users' scores, which I don't, I see no reason a user's view of "this comment is too high" is any less valid than the opposite. And bringing in the concept of "groupthink".. Surely showing us the up vote…

>And bringing in the concept of "groupthink".. Surely showing us the up vote has the exact same affect in that regard?

It's not the same. Firstly, and most obviously, upvotes cannot lead to a comment being grayed out or barely legible and, thus, overlooked.

Secondly, for those who do actually care about Magic Karma Beans for some reason, venturing from the herd runs the risk of earning downvotes, since they are used to express mere disagreement. If there was no risk of that "loss", then those people would be more willing to take a chance on expressing alternative or unpopular views.

So, there's a downside to differing with the group sentiment and downvotes explicitly encourage people to post more when their views are in alignment with the group.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#305

Post by bane » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

The meaning of satire has lost its edge. People today think satire = political humor, but satire is supposed to be daring, edgy, and in its highest form be:

a) virtually indistinguishable from reality

b) expose the author to real danger and reprisal

c) nearly impossible to reverse on the satirist

Satire has very often been very dangerous to produce, and I think we're being reminded of this right now. It's why satirists take their work so seriously, because it exposes malformed thinking by people who've built their power bases on such thoughts.

In my opinion satire is one of the highest forms of free speech and one of the most powerful tools available for parsing people capable of rational thought and those who aren't.

It's a kind of gom jabbar test and is not for the faint of heart. It's almost a true battle of the pen vs. the sword.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#306

Post by geographomics » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:48 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #254

geographomics wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already plenty of laws in France and most (perhaps all) other countries that restrict freedom of speech. Examples of censured expression include but are not limited to: Holocaust denial, hate speech, some forms of pornography, leaking state secrets, harassing communication, copyright infringement, libel and slander. I don't think that freedom of expression is absolutely permitted anywhere. There are so many…

I agree. My primary point is just that it's not "the others" that threaten our freedom of expression its ourselves.

My apologies, I misread your comment as saying that freedom of expression was only just beginning to be under threat. I do agree with your primary point.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#307

Post by kristofferR » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

rikacomet wrote: post #296

kristofferR wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, and it kinda hurts me to say it, but the belief that blasphemers should be punished is unfortunately a very reasonable interpretation of the Quran. It doesn't take any interpretation at all, it says directly that they should be slain in 33:57-61 for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy Don't get me wrong, the Bible commands the death penalty for a lot of things too, like working on a S…

Can I point, that one of the central tenants of Islam is that the only source of Quran is Quran itself. Wikipedia is not a accurate source. But you knew that right?

Yeah, of course. All the English translations say the same thing, so it's not a translation issue:

33:57: http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_th...

33:58: http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_th...

33:59: http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_th...

33:60: http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_th...

33:61: http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_th...

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#308

Post by JonnieCache » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #109

JonnieCache wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very good point. I would argue that these cultures are simply expressing these religious instincts in ways that don't look like abrahamic religions, in the same way that football or rock music don't look like abrahamic religions either. Also, once you blur out the technical theological details, is Confucius not effectively treated as a prophet? (This is a genuine question.)

Not as a prophet, he wasn't said to have spoken the words of a divine force/entity.

Those are theological details.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#309

Post by kingmanaz » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:53 PM UTC

_nedR wrote: post #272

jpgvm wrote: post #40

It takes a great deal to stand up against the advance of political correctness on free speech. Other countries haven't nearly done as well as France. At the end of the day the situation was tragic but the defence of free speech against prevailing winds is incredibly important. As for religious extremism... I don't think we will see an end until enlightenment spreads and religion fades into historic irrelevancy. This…

I wouldn't consider France the vanguard of free Speech - For example holocaust denial is a punishable offense there. So free speech hasn't taken precedence over political correctness. It's just that criticizing or offending muslims is considered politically correct.

Correct. Also, it should be noted that Charlie Hebdo recently fired a contributor for mildly criticizing a powerful Jew:

"Below is the full text which got the cartoonist Siné fired and brought before a court on charges of anti-Semitism. He was acquitted and later won a wrongful termination suit against Charlie Hebdo.

"The back story was that Jean Sarkozy rear-ended a BMW driven by some random Arab guy. Instead of stopping, he fled the scene. The police were not interested, but the BMW owner’s insurance company tracked down the scooter driver and it ended up being the younger Sarkozy. He was eventually acquitted of all charges and walked away scot-free. He married an heiress to the Darty fortune (Darty is a chain of electronic stores in France similar to Circuit City in the US). It was rumoured he would convert to Judaism (his great grandfather was Jewish) for the marriage but he denies he did this.

"So in response Siné wrote the following in Charlie Hebdo: Jean Sarkozy, a son worthy of his paternity and already a general counselor for the UMP, was set free –almost with applause — from his criminal proceedings for the offense of on his scooter. The prosecutor actually requested his release! It must be said that the complainant is an Arab! But that’s not all: he [Sarkozy] just declared his intention to convert to Judaism before marrying his fiancée, who is Jewish and the heiress to the founders of Darty. He’ll go far in life, this lad!"

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2015/01/the-cultural-na...

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#310

Post by _nedR » Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 2:53 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #289

_nedR wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I think you're pretty free to criticize the more extremist aspects of Judaism, such as circumcision (yes, they scream "antisemitism", but nobody takes them seriously), Well I don't think many jews, or muslims for that matter (muslims do it too) would be offended by a reasoned criticism of circumcision. It is usually the hot topics like Israeli actions, or depiction of Prophet Muhammad that seems to trigger passion…

There was quite a scandal in Germany recently, when a court ruled that circumcision was illegal, and both Muslims and Jews threw a fit, saying that Nazism is back.

Well. Then it no longer is criticism, is it?

You are essentially taking away their right to do something.