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Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

theguardian.com

271–280 of 489 posts

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#271
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unicorns exist. I have seen one. Of course, I can't prove it to you, but then, you can't prove to me that you exist.

They might as well exist, but based on my prior estimates of probabilities of different events, and Bayesian reasoning, I conclude that it's much more likely that you're insane than that you've actually seen a unicorn (I don't discard the existence of unicorns entirely, I just consider it very improbable).

You don't have to explain your reasoning. My point is predicated on my understanding your reasoning perfectly.

And, based on those same estimates of probabilities, none of us should be here, given what we know so far.

It just strikes me as profoundly short-sighted (and unwitting self-parody) for people to claim such assuredness of the falseness of others' beliefs when we all know so very little. In truth, neither of us can prove what we know or don't know in many regards.

It matters because it also smacks of the same moral/intellectual high-ground staking that serves to dismiss entire groups of people. Sure, we can claim tolerance, but is real tolerance (i.e. seeing others as equals, respecting their beliefs vs. just allowing that they have them, etc.) truly compatible with one group believing that another is actually insane?

The approach you take is materially no different than that taken by those whom attacked Hebdo. And, you both believe your positions to be evidence-based.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#272
post #40

It takes a great deal to stand up against the advance of political correctness on free speech. Other countries haven't nearly done as well as France. At the end of the day the situation was tragic but the defence of free speech against prevailing winds is incredibly important. As for religious extremism... I don't think we will see an end until enlightenment spreads and religion fades into historic irrelevancy. This…

I wouldn't consider France the vanguard of free Speech - For example holocaust denial is a punishable offense there.

So free speech hasn't taken precedence over political correctness. It's just that criticizing or offending muslims is considered politically correct.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#273
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If users should be trusted to push comments up, then why not down also? A down vote doesn't have to mean "this comment should not be on HN", it can be "I disagree with this comment" or "I think this comment should be lower down".

Users do push comments down by pushing others up. If we are trying to surface interesting content, then what more do we need? And, why should your simple personal disagreement result in a comment being pushed down unless what we want is groupthink instead of earnest discussion? The proper thing to do, if one cares enough to express disagreement, is to explain why he/she disagrees. Then, there's the fact that downvote…

I can't down vote this particular comment of yours as it is a reply to me, but wouldn't if I could. But I've no problem if others wish to. Or if they want to up vote you, also fine by me.

Other than caring about other users' scores, which I don't, I see no reason a user's view of "this comment is too high" is any less valid than the opposite.

And bringing in the concept of "groupthink".. Surely showing us the up vote has the exact same affect in that regard?

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#274
post #32

The Charlie Hebdo attacks show that these days, real satire of Islam can't be done without significant risk of violent reprisal. If you doubt that statement, remember The Book of Mormon. (The play, not the actual book.) Could you imagine Trey Parker and Matt Stone making an equivalent Broadway play about Islam? Could you imagine them calling it The Qur'an to Google-bomb the original? Even if they disregarded their ow…

The official response by the LDS church to the Book of Mormon was this: "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ." [1]

Not exactly what you would call "backlash." Then the church took out an ad in the playbill. [2]

[1] http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-regar... [2] http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/06/entertainment/la-et-...

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#275
post #77
post #4

> Warning: this article contains the image of the magazine cover, which some may find offensive. It's the first time I've seen something like this on Guardian; I don't even remember it on articles discussing rape, murder or such, which is usually where "trigger warning" applies. Personally, I find such trigger warnings, and especially "you might be offended" warnings, totally ridiculous. What about me? I find such wa…

> I find such warnings an insult to my intelligence and a trivialization of people's personal responsibility How so? If an article says "trigger warning: (rape/Mohammed/spiders/flashing lights)", then people who don't want to be exposed to those things (e.g. due to PTSD, religion, phobias, epilepsy - or simply because it upsets them and they don't particularly want to be upset right now) can choose not to read it. Ho…

Your proposition makes no sense, simple warning someone would offend them that way.

I relate to the OP that trigger warnings are an insult to my intelligence. If such a thing offends me, I should be able to judge it by myself or stop reading. The title is explicit enough to assume the "triggering" content is present.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#276
post #106
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why was this downvoted?!

Nearly zero content.

>Nearly zero content

>They may have decided to preface their article with this message because they feared retaliation by zealous Muslims who would not otherwise expect to see a depiction of Muhammad in the Guardian.

Seems like content to me.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#277
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone has to walk on eggshells around Islam, or risk being labeled racist or "Islamaphobic".

Moreso than Jews & Judaism?

Sure, I could extend my statement to all major religions. Why does religious belief get an exception from scrutiny and mockery?

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#278
post #115
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely those faggots need to be condemned/punished/killed/whatever This is exactly what is wrong with people that hold your point of view. You privledge religion as something sacred and then go on to be homophobic and encourage the use of violence as a form of punishment. This is a common theme from people the defend religion and it's pedestal. If you want to claim that views are views you need to put everything on…

I think no religion preaches violence, including Islam. Its the followers that have their own interpretations.. Do we relate the acts of Hitler to Christianity?

You've obviously never read the Qur'an. There are pages and pages of material condoning and inciting people to violence. Sam Harris printed pages of quotes from a translation of the Qur'an in The End of Faith, it was an eye-opening read for me. I often hear liberals repeating that it's not really a violent text, without knowing anything about it, they just want to believe it, maybe because it fits with the liberal philosophy of tolerance. The old testament also has some of that, but I think Islam easily wins as the most violent mainstream religion, both in reality and in their holy texts.

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#279
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is an immutable characteristic. No one could possibly change their race. It's barely a valid concept. Holding someone responsible for an inseparable part of themselves is both ill-conceived and futile. Religion is software: adopt a baby from a family with a different religion and odds are that the baby will grow into an adult having your religion. It may feel like an inseparable part of oneself, but it is not: i…

Religion might be better analogised to firmware - installed early in the lifecycle by the manufacturers, difficult to replace; most end users would not do so or even consider doing so. If we look at someone who is born into a religion, lives their life holding those religious beliefs, and dies as a member of that same religion - is it valid to assume that they could have separated themselves from their beliefs? Just…

Many forms of Islam has e-fuses that can brick you if you try to change the firmware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Re: Charlie Hebdo: first cover since terror attack depicts prophet Muhammad

#280
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> First of all.. certainly as a Muslim, I condemn the attack on Charlie Hebdo. This is not Islam. Pretending Islam is one single thing seems to be part of the problem. Are the IS fighters following Islam? Were the Hebdo shooters? Or are you? All would answer yes but clearly are very different, conflicting philosophies.

If you can't believe either me or them, then you surely can try to find out what Islam is yourself right? Best help is self help! To start looking, pick up a genuine English Translation of Quran.

Or you could read the following chapter from The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. It is quite entertaining.

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume2/chap50.htm

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